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Thread: Gerrymandering

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    You and Corso have produced nothing but straw man arguments accompanied by projecting your behavior onto the rest of us; it’s endemic to today’s GOP so no surprise there.

    No further engagement by me.
    Nice wordplay John, labelling and dismissing anyone who doesn't agree with you. By the way, asking people too join and support Abrams isn't really a conversation, it's solicitation.

    I will continue to counter any large scale "GOP is the BAD ones" I see fit. (or until a monitor PMs me for clarification). Conversations typically include opposing viewpoints.

    I welcome, as always, your engagement. I may not agree with your viewpoint, but I won't simply dismiss it.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Yours is a goldmine as well. david's too. You both say nothing, making no counter points, and basically amount to a child saying "naught anh! naught anh!" while your little elitist click rallies you.

    Every single one of you on the other side seem to exclusively use the "it's a prime strategy of X" thinking that's some sort of argument. How about you actually make the counter-argument? But you can't, so you resort to this ridiculous farce while one of you makes an attempted attack on reasonable questions, and the rest of your quasi-intellectual club agrees blindly, accusing the questioner of random, ridiculous things.

    Again, I can't say enough times how similar you guys (at least 95% of you are wealthy, white males in case you didn't look in the mirror recently) are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against. You don't even realize it because you've never dared to venture outside your little club, that's the hilarious part.
    Well, since you named-checked me, I'll take a crack at responding to your list of concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    You're so terrified about this? I'd think if you really cared about the "republic" things like the following would send your spidey sense tingling if you are worried about a party setting themselves up for a totalitarian takeover:

    Making D.C. a state (really the ultimate gerrymander),
    There are just under 700,000 United States citizens living the District of Columbia and they have no representation in Congress. More than the population of Vermont, more than the population of Wyoming. They do have representation for the presidential election, so this is rather inconsistent as far as I'm concerned.

    The issue is not gerrymandering, which refers to drawing the borders of congressional districts in a way that maximizes the likelihood that a particular party's candidate will be elected by the district. This is strictly about congressional representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    stacking the Supreme Court,
    I feel a little queasy about adding seats to the court. Although it has been done in the past - there's no Constitutional requirement for the number of seats - I see this as an extreme response to Senator McConnell's abuse of his power to hold hearings for Supreme Court nominees, something that he has abused - twice - to the strict benefit of his party. His actions are shameful, and his blatant partisanship should be condemned by everyone. McConnell has subverted the composition of the Supreme Court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    eliminating the filibuster,
    The rules around the filibuster have been bent to the point that it requires 60 votes in the Senate to do pretty much anything. I would like to see the filibuster restored to what it once was, when a Senator was required to stay on her feet for the duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    creating a national police force (ie- gestapo),
    I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to here. I might be deeply offended by your equating it with an apparatus of Nazi Germany if I knew what you were talking about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    "F-15s and nukes" to deal with their own citizens,
    Again, I have no clue what you are referring to. Jet fighters? Loaded with missiles? With nuclear warheads? What are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    no voter ID necessary,
    This absurd exaggeration of the changes made to voting laws to allow more ballot-by-mail makes it barely worth responding to you. Every audit of last year's elections - and there have been may legitimate ones - has found no evidence of significant problems with voter fraud. Voter fraud is not a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    a border disaster (yes, it is a disaster),
    This tragic situation follows directly from our country's inability to agree upon and implement a coherent, reasonable immigration policy. The last time we even got close - and we got very, very close - was under GWB. As a consequence we continue to have a serious problem at our southern borders

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    skyrocketing inflation (admittedly, that one is a shared responsibility, but asking for more $ at this point is incredibly irresponsible)
    I'm only a little concerned with the wild economic swings we're experiencing as we begin to reopen post-pandemic. I will be worried if we still have a high rate of price increases and high(ish) unemployment as we roll into 2022.

    So, a totalitarian takeover? Nah. I'd like to see a more fair shot at allowing US citizens a simple, easy opportunity to vote. I'd like to see a rational, welcoming immigration policy. I will state that I am firmly against the US using F15s or nuclear weapons against its citizens. I guess we agree on that.
    GO!

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    For real laughing out loud.

    None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

    Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.
    so did you go on that bike ride?

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Nice wordplay John, labelling and dismissing anyone who doesn't agree with you.
    It isn't wordplay. My assertions and abridged supporting reasons are in posts 1, 3, 6, 46 and 52. Your replies (21, 29, 31, 61) and Sino's (9, 27, 36, 40, 44, 55) vary from straw man arguments to specious replies to ascribing positions to me and others that we haven't made. That really is a weak sauce.

    If either of you want to present information that illustrates how the GOP hasn't been and isn't engaged in gerrymandering or broader attempts at voter suppression, feel free.
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    [QUOTE=jclay;1053537
    If either of you want to present information that illustrates how the GOP hasn't been and isn't engaged in gerrymandering or broader attempts at voter suppression, feel free.[/QUOTE]

    I can't speak for Sino, and would appreciate your not viewing us as the same (but you can't help yourself).

    I don't recall ever stating the GOP isn't guilty. So your challenge is asking for an answer I never asked. Nice technique. What label do you give that?

    In fact, if you actually read what I post, my point is the DEMS ALSO are guilty - something you can't seem to accept.

    Yes, I could support what has happened in my state by the Democratic party, But it's not worth my time. Your single sided view is well documented by yourself, so why bother.

    If you keep living in the "my side is right" vacuum, nothing will move ahead.

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    In fact, if you actually read what I post, my point is the DEMS ALSO are guilty - something you can't seem to accept.
    Then point us to reasonably current examples where dems are guilty of anything remotely close to the current systemic, large scale voter suppression efforts of the GOP. While reprehensible at any scale, by any party, as a practical matter size does matter.

    I have big probs with the dem party but gerrymandering (though certainly dems have done that) isn't (to the best of my knowledge) anywhere near the scale or flavor that is so obviously engineered to disenfranchise specific demographics seen as threats to GOP power retention.
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    When it comes to gerrymandering, to simply encant the “both sides do it” mantra may be literally accurate but it obscures an important point. The pernicious effect of gerrymandering is that it undermines –

    “‘[t[he “core principle of republican government … that the voters should choose their representatives, not the other way around.” … Partisan gerrymandering turns it the other way around. By that mechanism, politicians can cherry-pick voters to ensure their reelection. And the power becomes, as Madison put it, “in the Government over the people.’”
    Rucho v. Common Cause, 139 S. Ct. 2484, 2512 (2019) (J. Kagan, dissent). The Rucho majority itself opined that gerrymandering is “incompatible with democratic principles”. Rucho, 139 S. Ct. 2484, 2506 (2019) (J. Roberts).

    Defined that way – i.e., politicians empowering a minority of the voters to elect a disproportionate majority of the politicians – the Democrats have not been as successful at gerrymandering as the Republicans. Rucho is a good example.

    Rucho actually took up two cases. In one case, the North Carolina Republicans crafted a map that in 2018 allotted them 9 of 12 congressional seats, although they received only 50% of the statewide vote. In the second case, the Maryland Democrats drew a map that extended their congressional seat advantage, historically 5 or 6 Democrats and 2 or 3 Republicans, to a 7 to 1, advantage even though never receiving more than 65% of the statewide congressional vote.

    In sum, the North Carolina Republicans receive 50% of the votes but allotted themselves 75% of the seats -- a 150% enlargement of their relative voting power and a 50% dilution of the Democrats’ voting power. The Maryland Democrats, in contrast, won a two-thirds majority statewide and extended their representation from 6 to 7 seats.

    One side created a majority that did not exist in the electorate, actively disenfranchising half of the state’s voters. The other narrowly pressed an advantage they already had. Both are certainly ugly attempts at creating voter proof maps but, I submit, the resulting effect is a far cry from “both sides do it.”

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Jay Dwight

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by zachateseverything View Post
    so did you go on that bike ride?
    Just can't help yourself, can you. Again, popped collar pastel polos with khakis boys club. Trying to marginalize me by saying I don't ride because I don't agree with you.

    But to answer the question, hell no, too hot and humid.

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    Then point us to reasonably current examples where dems are guilty of anything remotely close to the current systemic, large scale voter suppression efforts of the GOP. While reprehensible at any scale, by any party, as a practical matter size does matter.
    Great article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/democr...y-get-to-do-it

    And here are plenty of examples of egregious dem examples: https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerryman...tricts-example

    Blindness isn't always a disease, sometimes it's a choice.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by ides1056 View Post
    Yes it was. Thanks.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Great article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/democr...y-get-to-do-it

    And here are plenty of examples of egregious dem examples: https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerryman...tricts-example

    Blindness isn't always a disease, sometimes it's a choice.
    Nobody here has claimed that dems haven't/don't do it, or have lilly white skirts; they certainly don't appear to be as effective at it as the Rs. The claim is that they, in recent times, don't hold a candle to what the Rs are doing wrt gerrymandering and broader voter suppression of the less supportive demographics while undermining confidence in our elections (and undermining them in reality) without any evidence of organized, large scale fraud.

    From the linked article, I can agree with this: "Politics has to be taken out of the drawing of district lines, to the extent that it can be. The question that everyone is grappling with is how to do that. From proportional representation to nonpartisan redistricting commissions (a handful of states have appointed such commissions, and after the 2020 census, we’ll see how they do), there’s no lack of proposed solutions."
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Just can't help yourself, can you. Again, popped collar pastel polos with khakis boys club. Trying to marginalize me by saying I don't ride because I don't agree with you.

    But to answer the question, hell no, too hot and humid.
    I think he's saying that your posts seem to display an elevated level of pent of energy and frustration, and that by going for a bike ride it will help you to relax. I don't think it's a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, just a matter of taking a step back to collect your thoughts.
    Will Neide (pronounced Nighty, like the thing worn to bed)

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Just can't help yourself, can you. Again, popped collar pastel polos with khakis boys club. Trying to marginalize me by saying I don't ride because I don't agree with you.

    But to answer the question, hell no, too hot and humid.
    I don't think you ride because you never seem to contribute to the non-political topics. it has nothing to do with agreeing with me. I know BigBill for example loves to ride and we have fairly different political views. This isn't a frat boy club but it is a weird party to end up at if you aren't a bike nerd.

    but seriously, you should take a step back and do something you actually enjoy instead of slinging insults and halfbaked arguments. Making aggressive comments towards others, intentionally obfuscating the things that they say, and then crying victim if someone pushes back on you doesn't strike me as healthy behavior.

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    I was going to start a thread on the victim thing, but it's timely here.

    At sixty-five I look around at the many people I know with whom I grew up. We all started in more or less the same place, had similar educations and opportunities. Those who see themselves as victims now have dismal prospects here on out.
    Jay Dwight

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    Rather than thrashing about with this thread I suggest volunteering for Stacey Abrams organization and similar. That will be a hell of a lot more fruitful in terms of protecting and expanding our democracy as well as facilitating the address of urgent issues of our time.
    Just a reminder that Stacey Abrams is still working her butt off to register voters who have been systematically disenfranchised and fight voter suppression and gerrymandering. She's a hero in my book and a whip smart champion of our better aspirations. Please consider contributing to her Fair Fight organization: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/fair-fight-1

    https://www.facebook.com/electdemocr...eric&ref=notif
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    Just a reminder that Stacey Abrams is still working her butt off to register voters who have been systematically disenfranchised and fight voter suppression and gerrymandering. She's a hero in my book and a whip smart champion of our better aspirations. Please consider contributing to her Fair Fight organization: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/fair-fight-1

    https://www.facebook.com/electdemocr...eric&ref=notif
    From the promoter:

    Stacey Abrams, political leader, voting rights activist, entrepreneur, and NYTimes bestselling author's Fall of 2021 tour.

    Each will be an evening of candid conversation and insights on politics, leadership, entrepreneurship, social justice, and being a true voice for change. Designed around worldwide and national events and including questions from the audience and community, this conversation with Stacey Abrams will entertain, inform, and empower.

    People tend to remember the first time they heard Stacey Abrams speak, and it’s easy to see why. – TIME Magazine

    Dates and locations, below.

    https://staceyabramstour.com/?fbclid...mx5aMOnO5W_W8k
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    From the article:

    “All told, Republicans will have sole control over drawing congressional maps in 18 states and legislative maps in 20 states, while Democrats will have sole control of congressional maps in seven states and legislative maps in nine states,” wrote Michael Li of the Brennan Center for Justice.

    Things are not, you’ll notice, galloping to a conclusion despite the looming deadlines. Unless semi-magical extensions emerge, the state supreme courts could wind up drawing the districts in Iowa and Maine. In Illinois, Li added, there’s a fascinating system that could, in theory, completely shut Democrats out of the mapmaking process “despite controlling both houses of the legislature and the governor’s mansion.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/22/o...publicans.html

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    The Texas map is illustrative of the attempts to minimize and marginalize communities through targeted under-representation. Over the last decade Black and Hispanic residents have accounted for 95% of Texas' population growth, but under the proposed Texas map there will be fewer districts with majority Black or Hispanic representation that the decade prior.

    Pair this with their new voting laws, and the Texas GOP is pulling every lever they can to ensure a comfortable margin at the state legislative level for years to come.

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    Default Re: Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    The Texas map is illustrative of the attempts to minimize and marginalize communities through targeted under-representation. Over the last decade Black and Hispanic residents have accounted for 95% of Texas' population growth, but under the proposed Texas map there will be fewer districts with majority Black or Hispanic representation that the decade prior.

    Pair this with their new voting laws, and the Texas GOP is pulling every lever they can to ensure a comfortable margin at the state legislative level for years to come.
    The GOP is already almost at PEAK gerrymander.

    See Current Districts

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ng-maps/texas/

    If you redistrict to maximize GOP chances, you can only pick up 2 seats. 25 GOP 10 Dem and one competitive

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...aps/texas/#GOP

    If you wanted to redistrict to maximize for Dems, you can go 15 GOP 20 Dems and 1 competitive

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...aps/texas/#Dem

    If you wanted to redistrict to maximize competitive which is probably be best thing for the country right now, 10 GOP, 4 Dems and 22 highly competitive. . .

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...s/#Competitive

    But evenin trying this, you'd get dirty tricks like which neighborhoods get polling stations etc. . . .

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