Insomnia

[bbillington]

For the last 12 years or so, I’ve battled with insomnia. As with many parents, it starts when our kids are babies, when interrupted sleep leads to an inability to sleep soundly and one finds oneself waking easily and unable to return to slumber.

I fall asleep fine and typically wake 3-4 hours later. If I’m lucky I can sleep for an additional hour or so. I tend to give up around 3:30-4AM at which time I make coffee and either get on the trainer or wait for sunrise to go out for a ride. My training has my caloric needs around 5,000 cal/day to maintain my current weight. I mention this only to say there’s no shortage of exercise and physical labor in my life.

I don’t drink coffee after 9 AM. I eat well, don’t drink soda or consume much sugar.

I don’t take prescription medications and will not consider benzodiazepines or other sleep aids.

Marijuana was the only natural solution to helping me sleep but I stopped that a long ways back because of its impact on other facets of my life... training, motivation, overeating, etc.

I’ve tried meditation.
I take melatonin and valerian.
I limit screen time at night.
I have a white noise generator.
I tried baths.
Tea.
Sex.
Breathing techniques.
Alcohol.
Everything.

Something has to give. Anyone else spend hours feeling alone while your family sleeps? Anyone here kick this shit and if so, how?

[Matthew Strongin]

I'm all ears too. Though my issue is the opposite...my insomnia prevents me from falling asleep. It started in high school and comes and goes throughout the years. The last 6 months or so have brought it on full force and I'm not sleeping at all (or just for an hour or two) every 3-4 days. I'll be tired and if anything disturbs me right at the point where I'm about to fall asleep, whether it's a noise or a thought, I missed my window and I'll be awake all night. I'm reading about meditation and hope that helps, but could always use some additional and hopefully more immediate help. I'm tired.

[Saab2000]

Alcohol is bad for sleep.

Your symptoms mimic mine quite closely. I sleep well for several hours then it's done. Sometimes I get back to sleep for the rest of the night, sometimes not. What I have found is that my body will eventually fall back to sleep and often the last 60-90 minutes are the deep, restful sleep we need.

I've been working early AM shifts for 25 years and right now I'm on a sort of sabbatical from my work and sleeping more has been the greatest part of it. I haven't set an alarm in months. This will eventually end but I'm enjoying it for now.

My only suggestions would be to consider your alcohol intake. It's well known to be bad for sleep. I know this first hand. Additionally, a post-lunch nap can do wonders. Otherwise, don't give up at 4 AM. I'd try to get back to sleep for another couple hours if you can. That's the lowest point of your body's circadian cycle and you may be up for a couple hours but may succeed for those lowest hours. When I can get back to sleep those are the deepest couple hours for me and the best.

Avoid your phone or iPad or similar during the night. If you read, read paper. I need the darkest room possible. Consider that.

[chrisn]

5,000 calories a day suggests you must be doing a fairly high amount of training/exercise. I know you also tend to put in a lot of miles on the bike Matt... I think there can be a link with over-exercising and the resultant high levels of endorphins, causing you to struggle with sleep. Probably not what you want to hear, but it can be a 'thing' for some highly active people.

[ides1056]

I made weed shortbread last winter. The problem is finding the theraputic dose, because it's never consistent. One day it's x, another half/x.

[bbillington]

Thanks for the input, gents. Matthew—I know that window of opportunity well but for me it comes when I’m trying to fall back asleep. I can get so close to it and then it’s gone. Saab— I don’t really drink. Hardly ever even a beer—was just noting that it hadn’t helped on the rare occasion I have more than one. Good call on the total darkness comment. My new house has two neighbors across the valley who have the brightest spotlights imaginable in their backyards, shining with laser-like precision into our bedroom. I’ve considered an air rifle with a sniper scope.

Chris—I’ve been thin all my life and it’s hard to maintain my weight and muscle mass while training with intensity. My wife and her sisters roll their eyes at me and say things like “I wish I had your problem”. Personally I don’t think they have a clue what it’s like. I weigh my food and track calories to ensure I’m eating enough.

[Todd Amunrud]

I would recommend a sleep medicine specialist. Be direct about no interest in medication interventions(if that’s an important part of your approach).

[j44ke]

Just an idea here - Is it negatively affecting your health? It may be frustrating because you feel like you should be sleeping, but if you are high functioning during the day and not making errors from fatigue or injuring yourself, maybe the adjustment isn't that you need to sleep more when you can't sleep. I guess heart health depends on a certain depth of sleep, so maybe keep tabs on the aspects of health that can be adversely affected by lack of sleep but otherwise, if you aren't groggy and tired and operating at reduced abilities to cope with the day, maybe what your body is doing isn't entirely a negative.

On the other hand, my wife was famous for not sleeping. It was an incredible ability that came in handy during the early years of her law career. She could just stay awake for days and get huge amounts of work done. Then one day she started vibrating. Literally. Sent her to the doctor and her thyroxine levels were off the charts. She had hyperthyroid and that was literally keeping her awake at night (and a whole host of other things related to thyroid levels that just seemed like high metabolism.) She sleeps a lot better now. She still wakes up at 4AM, but now she's sleeping 6 hours instead of one or two or zero.

[j44ke]

Thanks for the input, gents. Matthew—I know that window of opportunity well but for me it comes when I’m trying to fall back asleep. I can get so close to it and then it’s gone. Saab— I don’t really drink. Hardly ever even a beer—was just noting that it hadn’t helped on the rare occasion I have more than one. Good call on the total darkness comment. My new house has two neighbors across the valley who have the brightest spotlights imaginable in their backyards, shining with laser-like precision into our bedroom. I’ve considered an air rifle with a sniper scope.

Chris—I’ve been thin all my life and it’s hard to maintain my weight and muscle mass while training with intensity. My wife and her sisters roll their eyes at me and say things like “I wish I had your problem”. Personally I don’t think they have a clue what it’s like. I weigh my food and track calories to ensure I’m eating enough.

As I understand from my wife's experience, that sort of metabolic rate can be related to thyroid. Can be. Only a doctor can say one way or the other. You have to get checked and tested in order to make that determination. Usually it is one of those things that appears on the printout after the lab does the blood test associated with a physical, but our doctor did a targeted test when my wife went in. Worth a discussion with your doctor.

[Bob Ross]

a post-lunch nap can do wonders.

If only! I've long advocated for America's workforce to embrace the concept of the siesta. Back when I was self-employed I would try to get an afternoon nap in whenever possible, and even 15-20 minutes of shut-eye mid-day left me infinitely more refreshed and productive than any other sleep schedule or sleep aid I've ever used.

[j44ke]

Not an expert but, anecdotally, melatonin was a godsend for combatting jet lag and altitude acclimation when I visited South Africa recently. Helped me both fall asleep and stay asleep.

One thing - melatonin is a scheduled drug in South Africa. Thus it isn't available over the counter and can only be obtained with a prescription from a doctor. The stuff I got was also compounded by a pharmacist. I think - but cannot verify - that the melatonin I got in South Africa was of a higher quality than what I can obtain here in the US.

Melatonin in the US is classified as a supplement. Thanks to Orin Hatch, actual ingredients could vary widely.

[HorsCat]

Melatonin in the US is classified as a supplement. Thanks to Orin Hatch, actual ingredients could vary widely.

Thanks; wasn't aware of that and helps explain things. Per the inter web, recommended adult dose is around 5mg; I have taken this dose of United States-obtained melatonin and felt like it did nothing. The stuff I got in South Africa was 3mg, and one pill worked like magic.

[bbillington]

Update: so I slept 3 hours last night and was wide awake at midnight as a result. I got up, read in another bedroom, couldn’t fall back asleep. So I headed to the garage and make a box to ship a bike in. Packed the bike, ate breakfast at 3AM, then exercised for a bit. Around 6 I was feeling drowsy but the kids were waking so I made breakfast for them and finally allowed myself coffee.

I made an appointment with a sleep specialist and had a virtual consult with her late in the morning. I was pleased that she considers prescription sleep aids an absolute last resort. Next week I’ll be picking up some sleep monitoring machinery from her office. For four days my sleep and vitals will be monitored. I’m thankful I can do this at home. Not for nothing, but you folks gave me the gentle nudge I needed to take that first step and I truly appreciate it.

BB

[KonaSS]

Update: so I slept 3 hours last night and was wide awake at midnight as a result. I got up, read in another bedroom, couldn’t fall back asleep. So I headed to the garage and make a box to ship a bike in. Packed the bike, ate breakfast at 3AM, then exercised for a bit. Around 6 I was feeling drowsy but the kids were waking so I made breakfast for them and finally allowed myself coffee.

I made an appointment with a sleep specialist and had a virtual consult with her late in the morning. I was pleased that she considers prescription sleep aids an absolute last resort. Next week I’ll be picking up some sleep monitoring machinery from her office. For four days my sleep and vitals will be monitored. I’m thankful I can do this at home. Not for nothing, but you folks gave me the gentle nudge I needed to take that first step and I truly appreciate it.

BB

Given that many of us shared similar experiences, would love to hear what you find out.

[Matthew Strongin]

Given that many of us shared similar experiences, would love to hear what you find out.

Seconded.

bbillington, any updates?

[bcm119]

I think you said you tried cannabis before, but have you tried microdosing modern edibles? Edibles have come a long way in just the last few years. I know several folks who swear by small amounts of edible cbd/thc for a good night's sleep with no ill effects.

[bbillington]

I think you said you tried cannabis before, but have you tried microdosing modern edibles? Edibles have come a long way in just the last few years. I know several folks who swear by small amounts of edible cbd/thc for a good night's sleep with no ill effects.

Good idea! I microdose something else that rhymes with doom and the impact on other aspects of my life has been amazing.

[ides1056]

the problem with any edible is inconsistent results

one night its sleep

the next you are effing crawling on the floor

figure out a way to sleep without any help

no idea what that means

If only I could sleep like my dogs do.