Insomnia

[Clean39T]

Melatonin supplementation is not good, at least not for more than brief use, such as during cross-country travel and dealing with jet-lag induced sleep issues. It really screws up your system.. And it takes some time to get over it after quitting if you have been using it chronically.

CBD gummies, non-THC, have worked quite well for me. I use Wyld brand out of Oregon.

Also, eating a high GI meal before bed, like a bowl of cereal, has helped when I'm feeling peckish after a day that's had a fair amount of exercise and maybe not enough calories taken in. The general dietician recommendation to not eat before bed is misplaced for athletes. Don't eat a bowl of ice-cream every night - but don't fear taking in the calories your body needs..

[VertigoCycles]

Best of luck to you. I too have a similar problem. Awake around 2AM every day but I'm able to go back to bed at five with varied success until I have to be up at 7.

For me, the key is identifying what's waking me up and proactively dealing with it. Sometimes it's not possible because it might affect your sleep partner negatively or is completely impractical. Temperature and pain are the two things that interrupt my sleep the most...and my wife snoring starting at 2AM like clockwork. I found the weighted blanket to be hugely helpful in the wintertime but now that our house is over 60F at night, I can't sleep with it anymore. Try to identify the cause, and work from there.

[bbillington]

Melatonin supplementation is not good, at least not for more than brief use, such as during cross-country travel and dealing with jet-lag induced sleep issues. It really screws up your system.. And it takes some time to get over it after quitting if you have been using it chronically.

Do you have some science to back this up? Also, I’m all for eating cereal before bed but I opt for low sugar muesli or something along those lines.

[Saab2000]

Do you have some science to back this up? Also, I’m all for eating cereal before bed but I opt for low sugar muesli or something along those lines.

I can’t speak to long term melatonin usage but I tried it once years ago and after a couple days quit because it seemed to cause vivid, strong and bizarre dreams and unrestful sleep. Not nightmares but strange enough that I thought I don’t need my imagination running even more rampantly into the netherworlds and alternative universes than it already does.

I stay away from virtually all sleep aids now with the occasional exception of a swig of Z-quil once in a while and even then I ask myself the next day if it was worth it. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It has been good enough at times for me to not give it an absolute thumbs down. But a small bottle may last months and I’ll go months between usages.

[Clean39T]

Do you have some science to back this up? Also, I’m all for eating cereal before bed but I opt for low sugar muesli or something along those lines.

If I'm just needing satiety but didn't have a hard workout I'm recovering from, I use bran flakes - and if it's been a hard workout day, I mix in more accessible carbs with a higher-GI cereal (organic wheat flakes or some such). Science? No. Just N=1 results.

As for the chronic melatonin issues, just something I picked up along the way, can't remember the source, that also seems supported by my experience and others I've talked to..

[monadnocky]

Any experts on melatonin here?

My understanding is that it is beneficial (?) for regulating sleep cycles, but won't really do much to assist in sleep onset, or sleep quality?

Is this correct?

[j44ke]

Any experts on melatonin here?

My understanding is that it is beneficial (?) for regulating sleep cycles, but won't really do much to assist in sleep onset, or sleep quality?

Is this correct?

I found this after reading above. I don't know much about melatonin. There is a discussion about your question in there.

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/vie...eep-wake-cycle

[bbillington]

I have an appointment with a sleep doctor in a few minutes. This should be interesting.

[HorsCat]

Any experts on melatonin here?

My understanding is that it is beneficial (?) for regulating sleep cycles, but won't really do much to assist in sleep onset, or sleep quality?

Is this correct?

Not an expert but, anecdotally, melatonin was a godsend for combatting jet lag and altitude acclimation when I visited South Africa recently. Helped me both fall asleep and stay asleep.

One thing - melatonin is a scheduled drug in South Africa. Thus it isn't available over the counter and can only be obtained with a prescription from a doctor. The stuff I got was also compounded by a pharmacist. I think - but cannot verify - that the melatonin I got in South Africa was of a higher quality than what I can obtain here in the US.

[j44ke]

Not an expert but, anecdotally, melatonin was a godsend for combatting jet lag and altitude acclimation when I visited South Africa recently. Helped me both fall asleep and stay asleep.

One thing - melatonin is a scheduled drug in South Africa. Thus it isn't available over the counter and can only be obtained with a prescription from a doctor. The stuff I got was also compounded by a pharmacist. I think - but cannot verify - that the melatonin I got in South Africa was of a higher quality than what I can obtain here in the US.

Melatonin in the US is classified as a supplement. Thanks to Orin Hatch, actual ingredients could vary widely.

[Bob Ross]

a post-lunch nap can do wonders.

If only! I've long advocated for America's workforce to embrace the concept of the siesta. Back when I was self-employed I would try to get an afternoon nap in whenever possible, and even 15-20 minutes of shut-eye mid-day left me infinitely more refreshed and productive than any other sleep schedule or sleep aid I've ever used.

[HorsCat]

Melatonin in the US is classified as a supplement. Thanks to Orin Hatch, actual ingredients could vary widely.

Thanks; wasn't aware of that and helps explain things. Per the inter web, recommended adult dose is around 5mg; I have taken this dose of United States-obtained melatonin and felt like it did nothing. The stuff I got in South Africa was 3mg, and one pill worked like magic.

[bbillington]

Update: so I slept 3 hours last night and was wide awake at midnight as a result. I got up, read in another bedroom, couldn’t fall back asleep. So I headed to the garage and make a box to ship a bike in. Packed the bike, ate breakfast at 3AM, then exercised for a bit. Around 6 I was feeling drowsy but the kids were waking so I made breakfast for them and finally allowed myself coffee.

I made an appointment with a sleep specialist and had a virtual consult with her late in the morning. I was pleased that she considers prescription sleep aids an absolute last resort. Next week I’ll be picking up some sleep monitoring machinery from her office. For four days my sleep and vitals will be monitored. I’m thankful I can do this at home. Not for nothing, but you folks gave me the gentle nudge I needed to take that first step and I truly appreciate it.

BB

[KonaSS]

Update: so I slept 3 hours last night and was wide awake at midnight as a result. I got up, read in another bedroom, couldn’t fall back asleep. So I headed to the garage and make a box to ship a bike in. Packed the bike, ate breakfast at 3AM, then exercised for a bit. Around 6 I was feeling drowsy but the kids were waking so I made breakfast for them and finally allowed myself coffee.

I made an appointment with a sleep specialist and had a virtual consult with her late in the morning. I was pleased that she considers prescription sleep aids an absolute last resort. Next week I’ll be picking up some sleep monitoring machinery from her office. For four days my sleep and vitals will be monitored. I’m thankful I can do this at home. Not for nothing, but you folks gave me the gentle nudge I needed to take that first step and I truly appreciate it.

BB

Given that many of us shared similar experiences, would love to hear what you find out.

[Matthew Strongin]

Given that many of us shared similar experiences, would love to hear what you find out.

Seconded.

bbillington, any updates?

[cny rider]

If I'm just needing satiety but didn't have a hard workout I'm recovering from, I use bran flakes - and if it's been a hard workout day, I mix in more accessible carbs with a higher-GI cereal (organic wheat flakes or some such). Science? No. Just N=1 results.

As for the chronic melatonin issues, just something I picked up along the way, can't remember the source, that also seems supported by my experience and others I've talked to..

Multiple anecdotes do not make data, but my "formula" for a good night's sleep is nothing to eat after 6 pm, and go to bed feeling slightly hungry.
I think a lot of people suffer from nocturnal reflux which disrupts sleep and eating late can trigger it.

[bbillington]

Seconded.

bbillington, any updates?

Well, I signed up for a Whoop and have been using it for nearly a week now. The sleep data it provides has been really useful to me... along with the many other data types provided.

The sleep doc had me do an at home sleep study for four days. The first two nights I wore some sort of brain activity monitor that attached to my forehead. It was uncomfortable and I bet the whoop collects better data. The following two nights I had a cannula up my nose and a pulse monitor on my hand. I’m assuming that to track respiration and 02 data. Suffice to say, I’m glad that aspect is completed. I drop the hardware off this morning so they can collect their data.

My whoop tells me I need an absurd amount of sleep to get back on track. I only wish I were capable of sleeping for 11 hours. Best of luck and l will update as I learn more.

[Matthew Strongin]

Well, I signed up for a Whoop and have been using it for nearly a week now. The sleep data it provides has been really useful to me... along with the many other data types provided.

The sleep doc had me do an at home sleep study for four days. The first two nights I wore some sort of brain activity monitor that attached to my forehead. It was uncomfortable and I bet the whoop collects better data. The following two nights I had a cannula up my nose and a pulse monitor on my hand. I’m assuming that to track respiration and 02 data. Suffice to say, I’m glad that aspect is completed. I drop the hardware off this morning so they can collect their data.

My whoop tells me I need an absurd amount of sleep to get back on track. I only wish I were capable of sleeping for 11 hours. Best of luck and l will update as I learn more.

I've been debating getting whoop to help with my insomnia. Not like I think it will help me sleep, but to maybe better understand what's going on with my body. After a 5 day bought of insomnia a couple weeks ago, last week I slept like a baby. And I've slept maybe 6 hours over the last 3 days. I'm trying to be disciplined, I've cut out alcohol and some allergy meds that might be the culprit and I still can't find a pattern. I look forward to hearing how the Whoop works for you and may just give it a shot myself soon. I will say that my insomnia has gotten much worse since getting vaccinated, though I don't know if there's any correlation.

[marley]

I've been debating getting whoop to help with my insomnia. Not like I think it will help me sleep, but to maybe better understand what's going on with my body. After a 5 day bought of insomnia a couple weeks ago, last week I slept like a baby. And I've slept maybe 6 hours over the last 3 days. I'm trying to be disciplined, I've cut out alcohol and some allergy meds that might be the culprit and I still can't find a pattern. I look forward to hearing how the Whoop works for you and may just give it a shot myself soon. I will say that my insomnia has gotten much worse since getting vaccinated, though I don't know if there's any correlation.

the Whoop tells you what you already know - this is my opinion after 6 months - you need to be disciplined to hold some variables constant while you tweak others -so many variables - if you are in shape and train in a smart way - you get hero feedback and feel great about yourself because your are a 1%er - everyone else in the world needs more sleep/rest and to push themselves harder :)

[KonaSS]

I have tried all kinds of things, and I hate to admit this, but to me, the biggest correlation I can find is exercise and sleep. I race, and am training really hard this time of year. I find that on really hard training days, I don't sleep very well. For example, had a 2 day stage race this weekend, 10 hours on the bike, slept like crap last night. Conversely, when I take a rest week, and let some of that physical stress go and only train moderately, I sleep much better.

Not sure it provides me with any easy answer, cause I can't hit my on the bike goals with low to moderate exercise.
@Matthew Strongin - knowing you spend a good deal of time on the bike, wondering if you have noticed any similar correlations.