Impeachment Thread: Round 2

[Too Tall]

Bear with me, I'm trying to work this out in my head without Google.

Because the Impeachment managers make their own rules why not allow for a secret vote to Impeach and Convict? Concede to the GOP on the record voting thus pressing this political process to the ballot box where both parties will fight for their base of support.

There is no "off ramp" if you will for GOP and there needs to be in order for Dems and GOP to govern.

[Tom]

So what you're thinking is that the Republican opposition to conviction is cynical, driven by fear of their constituency? That they know it needs to be done but they are afraid of doing it and being accountable for their actions? On one level I would like to think that's the case because it would mean they actually know right from wrong but on another level I wish it wasn't so because I'd prefer that elected officials at some point decided to do what was right for the country right out in the open. They probably know that they couldn't articulate well to their angry constituency why they needed to do what they did, in that case, though. Communicating is Hard.

This business about it being unconstitutional? Somebody needs to show me the text in there that says the president has a couple of weeks of free rein to do anything they want with impunity. I read the thing and maybe my reading comprehension is a little weak but I didn't see that.

I agree, though, treating the Republicans like a dog that took a crap indoors and rubbing their noses in it won't elicit the most adult behavior from them.*

*this is not a slam on Republicans, even if they deserve it. Flip this 180 degrees and the same thing would apply I am pretty sure. It might get expressed differently but much the same would happen. How to do this right where we come out without one side going "Screw you, I ain't never working with you to get anything you want ever again" whichever side that is, or both, will be a work of art.

[Too Tall]

Yeah Tom in essence you got it. Political reality with better outcomes involves giving the "other side" room to maneuver. The RNC (let's not get into who that is right now) et. al. have massive purse strings. This is not the only reason I'm contemplating but makes for a good start.

[Clean39T]

I agree, though, treating the Republicans like a dog that took a crap indoors and rubbing their noses in it won't elicit the most adult behavior from them.
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It's not a dog that took a crap indoors, it's a grown ass man who not only shat on the rug, but spread it like peanut butter on everything good and right in this metaphorical house of a country. He. Must. Pay. Bigly...and in public. He needs to be exposed and disgraced in order for this country to heal. And if the GOPQR can't see that, then they deserve to pay too*. Impeachment is an opportunity for them to come clean, tell the truth, and get back to being the ignorant "muh freedoms and gee isn't the '50s great" party that is clinically insane but still colors within the lines to some extent.

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*Rush, Alex, Parler, Rudy, Greene, Bobert, Hawley, Cruz, and the whole criminal -45 enterprise deserve to pay as well - but to get to them, you have to cut off the head first...

[j44ke]

Schumer needs this to keep peace in the liberal coalition, so I think public is the way it is going to be. McConnell needs public as well, because he needs to be able to point to the process and say we all listened to the evidence and this is the verdict. So public it is.

What will be interesting is if there are witnesses called. I am very interested that Trump's defense doesn't include all the preplanning that evidently went on among parties involved (known or unknown) before the events of Jan 6. Wouldn't that preplanning be a defense strategy? How could Trump instigate something that was already planned? All I can figure is that the defense feels the need to avoid bringing the topic of preplanning into the chambers. But leaving that out is a big loss to the defense no? Trump's lawyers could have the FBI and police department reps show up and one after another talk about how all this appears to be preplanned. Good visuals, make the FBI and police look good, allow the allusion of law enforcement support for Trump hover over the proceedings. But instead they are using 1st Amendment, which immediately brings the "shouting fire in a crowded movie theater" exception to mind, and the Constitution which does not give the President immunity from prosecution by way of some instaneous statute of limitations effective upon the moment of the Inauguration.

Of course, if the Whitehouse had a role in the preplanning, I guess that would exclude it from the defense's box o' rocks.

I'd call the logistics firm of Biggs, Brooks & Gosar to the stand if there are going to be witnesses. And Stephen Miller.

[UnfilteredDregs]

Regarding the enemy; Tu Mu, commenting on Sun Tzu, advises, "Show him there is a road to safety..."

[UnfilteredDregs]

If there is no punishment for this blatant insurrection the rule of law in this country is meaningless.

[Clean39T]

Regarding the enemy; Tu Mu, commenting on Sun Tzu, advises, "Show him there is a road to safety..."

There are times to show a road to safety, and times to salt the fields.

When you have invasive and noxious weeds, you don't simply transplant them to the other side of the fence and keep watering them. You root them out. Burn them out. And pass legislation designed to prevent them from ever finding a toe-hold in your area again.

It's the difference in how you treat zebra and quagga mussels from farmed Hood Canal oysters.. I personally can't stand any mollusks, but one I can get behind eradicating, the other I'm okay with existing even if I have no personal interest in them and still consider them not the best use of ecological space.

[UnfilteredDregs]

There are times to show a road to safety, and times to salt the fields.

We're at the "staring into the abyss," stage of the game.

It's staring back.

If we allow them the option to impeach anonymously, with subsequent criminal prosecution, that'll go a long ways towards shoring up the Republic peacefully via concrete precedence.

Salting the fields is Civil War 2.

[VertigoCycles]

you lot are awfully optimistic. This IS political theater, non in the sense that it isn't deserved and necessary, because it clearly is, but I think we all know the outcome. The votes have already been cast and he'll be acquitted again. There is no amount of evidence that will convince enough republicans to convict because they don't serve justice, the people or even the law. We saw that the first time around.

[lumpy]

you lot are awfully optimistic. This IS political theater, non in the sense that it isn't deserved and necessary, because it clearly is, but I think we all know the outcome. The votes have already been cast and he'll be acquitted again. There is no amount of evidence that will convince enough republicans to convict because they don't serve justice, the people or even the law. We saw that the first time around.

I agree. Given that, I think it's important to get every vote on the record.

[smontanaro]

I am very interested that Trump's defense doesn't include all the preplanning that evidently went on among parties involved (known or unknown) before the events of Jan 6. Wouldn't that preplanning be a defense strategy?

I believe much of the planning — especially as it got closer to Jan 6 and it was obvious Trump would be involved — was by Trump's people. Whether that helps or hurts whatever deflection defense Trump might have, I don't know, but my inclination is that it doesn't help. Also, one article I read this morning indicated that the defense brief was written with an audience of one, Trump himself. It's possible that simply wasn't an option for his defense team, especially on such short notice.

[ides1056]

On the one hand he professes to have been reelected, on the other that he can't be prosecuted because he no longer is in office.

[72gmc]

The only way I can see a conviction is if the prosecutors can convince Republican senators that safety lies that way. Somehow, make the former President--and the prospect of him becoming President again--an existential threat to their existence at the trough. Not sure how this is done.

[bigbill]

Trump needs to be permabanned from politics, but there's no way he'll be convicted. Chief Justice Roberts is sitting this one out, probably to avoid the political fallout for a political process. Legally, I'm not sure they can do anything to Trump unless they can prove he planned the insurrection. I think there's plausible deniability that he knew what would happen. The Fourteenth Amendment would be hard to prove.

[vertical_doug]

Trump needs to be permabanned from politics, but there's no way he'll be convicted. Chief Justice Roberts is sitting this one out, probably to avoid the political fallout for a political process. Legally, I'm not sure they can do anything to Trump unless they can prove he planned the insurrection. I think there's plausible deniability that he knew what would happen. The Fourteenth Amendment would be hard to prove.

Let's be clear on why Chief Justice is sitting this out. He only needs to serve for the sitting President because if the sitting President is being impeached, the Vice President will have a conflict of interest in the result. Since Trump is no longer President, there is no conflict for Kamala Harris. The whole Chief Justice thing is just to muddy the waters that the process is unconstitutional by republicans. .

You don't need to take my opinion on this, since it has been addressed in the SCOTUSblog.
https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/01/r...achment-trial/

Earlier post addressing this when Trump was president.
https://www.scotusblog.com/2020/01/t...achment-trial/

[bironi]

So will The Donald fire Castor tonight?

[Too Tall]

*Good research Vertically Positioned Dougster. Thanks for that.

First, Jamie Raskin for Supreme Leader. Second, looks like that off ramp is ten steps off a short plank overlooking the Grand Canyon. A slew of GOP Senators just said we do not give a good g-d d@mn about the constitution and....oh is that cake? I love cake mmmmm.

This is a political process which is swayed heavily by the court of public opinion. DJTs poll numbers are in the 20s and falling. Don't count out conviction.

[Clean39T]

This is a political process which is swayed heavily by the court of public opinion. DJTs poll numbers are in the 20s and falling. Don't count out conviction.

I keep wondering..... why are they so afraid of him? Corporate America is no longer on his side. His frothy unwashed mob has been neutered and many are waking up to the fact that they were lied to and stolen from. The Evangelicals could easily be pushed to get behind a new leader. So.....what gives?

[PaMtbRider]

I keep wondering..... why are they so afraid of him? Corporate America is no longer on his side. His frothy unwashed mob has been neutered and many are waking up to the fact that they were lied to and stolen from. The Evangelicals could easily be pushed to get behind a new leader. So.....what gives?

He still has a huge base of voters who support him. To turn their back on him would be admitting they were wrong, and they will continue to blindly support him before admitting any of their own short comings.