The Vaccine Thread

[takashi]

Americans gonna American and lots of people are going to get sick and die and that is their right.

Best of luck to them.

[j44ke]

We visited friends for dinner on Thursday. They, like us, have been keeping a low profile. Masks when shopping, not eating out at restaurants, no group meals with more than two other people. Not perfect but not party hardy. Then unexpectedly, two of their friends show up - hey we're just back from our daughter's wedding in California! And look who we ran into at the bakery this morning - X Y and Z! You remember X & Y from high school, right? They are living in the Adirondacks now and they just came back from visiting their family in Columbia. And Z is their sister. She lives in Miami! Isn't that great? Oh we're all vaccinated. Hope that's okay.

So in about 2 minutes we went from a dinner perceived as relatively low risk to a possible epidemiological smorgasbord. Our guests graciously shooed their visitors off "for another time when we don't have plans already." But we had chosen to be there, to define the risk associated with being there in a way that made us comfortable enough to have dinner with two other people, and yet here were all these people adding themselves into the situation who were not part of that calculation. So refigure the risks and then go on with dinner? Run for the hills? Bathe in alcohol? We gritted our teeth a bit. And stayed for dinner.

Not sure what point I was making. Maybe that I wouldn't go to a DCCC function and sit so close to another person I could put my napkin on their lap accidentally?

Asymptomatic spread & "breakthrough" infection makes everything sketchy.

[colker]

There is not much we can do to help ourselves.. except take the vaccine.

[thollandpe]

There is not much we can do to help ourselves.. except take the vaccine.

And limit how we circulate (meaning breathing the same air space) with others, temporarily.

The problem is that temporarily takes on a whole new meaning when others decide that means little, or not at all.

[jimcav]

Americans gonna American and lots of people are going to get sick and die and that is their right.

Best of luck to them.

except not getting the vaccine at the first opportunity just made, and still makes, it easier for this virus to spread to those too young for the vaccine or to those whose immune systems can't properly respond to the vaccine. It isn't like deciding not to buckle up.

[zetroc]

Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do likewise.

[beeatnik]

Are these guys following our thread?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-los-...ks-11629558004

LOS ANGELES—The center of the Covid-19 pandemic in America’s second-largest city has shifted from poor, crowded neighborhoods to affluent ones with younger populations.

Across Los Angeles County, cities and neighborhoods including West Hollywood, Venice and Santa Monica now report some of the most infections, even though their vaccination rates are higher than in poorer areas such as East Los Angeles, where Covid-19 raced through families and neighborhoods during earlier surges, county health data shows.

The shift is a consequence of the Delta variant, which spreads more easily among people who gather indoors in such places as bars, clubs and restaurants and can affect people who are vaccinated, according to doctors.

Los Angeles shows how the Delta variant is prompting a surge that is different from what occurred earlier. Some other cities across the country, facing signs of increases, are taking steps such as mandating masks or requiring proof of vaccination for indoor dining instead of measures including the lockdowns carried out early in the pandemic.



Posted two or three weeks ago....

This is incorrect. According to the CDC and numbers on the ground. Also, reading between the proverbial lines and if one believes all epidemics are local, clusters of vaccinated outbreaks are now common in Los Angeles. At the moment, case rates on the affluent, knowledge economy-heavy Westside (and keep in mind, the vaccinated have very little incentive to test) are two to three times higher than in Boyle Heights (most total cases and highest historic case rate in Los Angeles), 25 to 45 daily cases per 100k versus 15 per 100k. 45 per 100k is what we used to believe was raging community transmission. Now you can either conclude that natural immunity is more protective accounting for lower current case rates in Boyle Heights or that vaccines are failing to prevent outbreaks. To me the best evidence is the case rate of 24 per 100k in Manhattan Beach (median home price 2M) where 99.5 of persons over 65 and 83% of children 12-17 are vaccinated. If one doesn't consider that universal....

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

https://www.latimes.com/projects/cal...moButton-above

For those who aren't from SoCal, Boyle Heights and East LA were the neighborhoods that were historically known as the Eastside of Los Angeles.

[Clean39T]

The problem now is that the unvaccinated are filling the hospitals and causing serious problems for the most vulnerable vaccinated individuals experiencing severe symptoms from breakthrough infections and for those who just need surgery and medical care completely unrelated to Covid. The anger over all of this in Oregon is reaching a boiling point as it is largely the rural/red/tRumper?GQP counties that refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks, and it is those counties who are sending their Covid patients to the hospitals in the counties with higher rates of vaccination and overwhelming the systems of counties that have "done the right thing". And yet the rules of emergency care dictate that the triage is done by immediate need, so we can't just put the unvaccinated in a tent out back and tell them to use their thoughts/prayers/FB-cures to take the sickness away. It's a clusterfuggle of epic proportions, and if it isn't in your area yet, just wait... it's coming. The only way out of it I can see is if medicare/medicaid coverage and/or private insurance coverage is denied for the unvaccinated. A percentage will still show up at the ER anyway and just deal with the bankruptcy that awaits them - but maybe it will push middle-class science deniers to get over themselves and choose their family's future over their insane ideology. Maybe the FDA approval will allow anyone providing a paycheck or benefits to require vaccination too, unless a bona-fide doctor has cleared someone as medically exempt.. We can hope anyway.

[bigbill]

The problem now is that the unvaccinated are filling the hospitals and causing serious problems for the most vulnerable vaccinated individuals experiencing severe symptoms from breakthrough infections and for those who just need surgery and medical care completely unrelated to Covid. The anger over all of this in Oregon is reaching a boiling point as it is largely the rural/red/tRumper?GQP counties that refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks, and it is those counties who are sending their Covid patients to the hospitals in the counties with higher rates of vaccination and overwhelming the systems of counties that have "done the right thing". And yet the rules of emergency care dictate that the triage is done by immediate need, so we can't just put the unvaccinated in a tent out back and tell them to use their thoughts/prayers/FB-cures to take the sickness away. It's a clusterfuggle of epic proportions, and if it isn't in your area yet, just wait... it's coming. The only way out of it I can see is if medicare/medicaid coverage and/or private insurance coverage is denied for the unvaccinated. A percentage will still show up at the ER anyway and just deal with the bankruptcy that awaits them - but maybe it will push middle-class science deniers to get over themselves and choose their family's future over their insane ideology. Maybe the FDA approval will allow anyone providing a paycheck or benefits to require vaccination too, unless a bona-fide doctor has cleared someone as medically exempt.. We can hope anyway.

This is similar to the folks who have the ability to evacuate before a hurricane but refuse, then call 911 when they need to be rescued resulting in EMS folks risking their lives to save them. Our local hospital is at capacity with covid cases (97% unvaccinated with breakthrough cases in folks >65 with comorbidity) with 3-5 deaths daily. Just across the street, folks are yelling at Walmart employees who ask them to wear a mask. The last data I reviewed showed a vaccinated person has a .0001% chance of dying due to a breakthrough infection, but people will argue that as well. We had too many people anyway.

[beeatnik]

It's a clusterfuggle of epic proportions, and if it isn't in your area yet, just wait... it's coming. The only way out of it I can see is if medicare/medicaid coverage and/or private insurance coverage is denied for the unvaccinated. A percentage will still show up at the ER anyway and just deal with the bankruptcy that awaits them - but maybe it will push middle-class science deniers to get over themselves and choose their family's future over their insane ideology. Maybe the FDA approval will allow anyone providing a paycheck or benefits to require vaccination too, unless a bona-fide doctor has cleared someone as medically exempt.. We can hope anyway.

Let's keep demonizing the unvaccinated.

Numbers out of Israel and Sweden complicate that narrative.

vez2.jpg


vez.jpg

vez3.jpg

[mjbabcock]

Nothing complicated there. There is a significant number of unvaccinated in Israel who are dying. Get vaccinated.

Let's keep demonizing the unvaccinated.

Numbers out of Israel and Sweden complicate that narrative.

vez2.jpg


vez.jpg

[beeatnik]

Nothing complicated there. There is a significant number of unvaccinated in Israel who are dying. Get vaccinated.

Now explain Sweden.

[thollandpe]

Let's keep demonizing the unvaccinated.

Opinion: Unvaccinated covid patients are straining hospitals like mine, where I had to turn a cancer patient away

Video: Dying in the Name of Vaccine Freedom

Opinion: The Quiet Rage of the Responsible

In that last one, Paul Krugman explores if the anger is justified and whether it will have any effect. "It's possible to have sympathy for some of the unvaccinated, especially workers who find it hard to take time off to get a shot and are worried about losing a day to aftereffects. But there's much less excuse for those who refuse to get their shots or wear masks for cultural or ideological reasons — and no excuse at all for MAGA governors like Ron DeSantis in Florida, Greg Abbott in Texas and Doug Ducey in Arizona who have been actively impeding efforts to contain the latest outbreak."

He sums it up by saying "So it's time to stop being diffident and call out destructive behavior for what it is. Doing so may make some people feel that they're being looked down on. But you know what? Your feelings don't give you the right to ruin other people's lives."

Numbers out of Israel and Sweden complicate that narrative.

Covid-19 live updates: Third Pfizer dose significantly lowers risk of infection in seniors, Israeli data shows


And a bonus track:

[Clean39T]

Let's keep demonizing the unvaccinated.

When we are down to a couple percentage points of the population who are unvaccinated out of medical necessity, I'll stop demonizing them.

Breakthrough cases are not what is overwhelming the hospital system.

[beeatnik]

When we are down to a couple percentage points of the population who are unvaccinated out of medical necessity, I'll stop demonizing them.

Breakthrough cases are not what is overwhelming the hospital system.

Since data and numbers can get one clowned, how about we look at trends. Again, I'll stick to LA County. Hospitalization and death rates higher than any part of Oregon, at least as reported. Vast numbers of unvaccinated; over 4M (essentially the entire population of Oregon) by the official definition. Vast wealth inequality. And, yet, the hospital system is not facing crisis. Scan the front page of the LA Times, scroll down the Covid-19 section. How are hospitals doing here? Are individuals in Oregon or Florida or wherever linked inherently less unvaccinated or less healthy or less lucky (sic)? Or is it possible that CA is the only state where a Democratic governor is being recalled. Speaking of, did anyone see that Pelosi fundraiser photo?


https://www.latimes.com/topic/covid-19-pandemic


https://www.economist.com/finance-an...hs-than-others

[Clean39T]

Since data and numbers can get one clowned, how about we look at trends. Again, I'll stick to LA County. Hospitalization and death rates higher than any part of Oregon, at least as reported. Vast numbers of unvaccinated; over 4M (essentially the entire population of Oregon) by the official definition. Vast wealth inequality. And, yet, the hospital system is not facing crisis. Scan the front page of the LA Times, scroll down the Covid-19 section. How are hospitals doing here? Are individuals in Oregon or Florida or wherever linked inherently less unvaccinated or less healthy or less lucky (sic)? Or is it possible that CA is the only state where a Democratic governor is being recalled. Speaking of, did anyone see that Pelosi fundraiser photo?


https://www.latimes.com/topic/covid-19-pandemic

So the LA Times is hiding Covid data to protect Newsom? Uh...... maybe go for the more simple explanation - you just might have a more robust hospital system down there with a deeper labor pool.

[Clean39T]

In that last one, Paul Krugman explores if the anger is justified and whether it will have any effect. "It's possible to have sympathy for some of the unvaccinated, especially workers who find it hard to take time off to get a shot and are worried about losing a day to aftereffects."

Something should definitely be done for these folks but at this late hour, it's hard to believe that pool is very large.. five months ago, sure - now?

[beeatnik]

So the LA Times is hiding Covid data to protect Newsom? Uh...... maybe go for the more simple explanation - you just might have a more robust hospital system down there with a deeper labor pool.

That's your interpretation. No one is hiding any data. There are more hospitalizations here per capita than where you are. Is it a crisis or not?

[zetroc]

That's your interpretation. No one is hiding any data. There are more hospitalizations here per capita than where you are. Is it a crisis or not?

There are an infinite number of ways to misrepresent and misinterpret data. Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do likewise.

[mjbabcock]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-vaccines.html

Data and stuff. Show me one where vaccinated folks have equal chances of hospitalization or death.
Pretty sure a reduction of risk is evidenced here. My local hospital mirrors this data…full of unvaccinated idiots.