The Vaccine Thread

[zetroc]

I think beatnik is discussing the topic in good faith...

I don't think that's the case.

[beeatnik]

Delta Breakthrough Update, Aug 18, 2021.


Wife is in the typical 4th day of a Bad Cold with Those Weird Covid Symptoms That Get Sensationalized by CNN Stage. She doesn't sound that bad and she's beginning to look like herself with the return of her appetite and reduction of general malaise. But her myalgia continues to present and the discomfort from it hasn't subsided. Weird thing is she is experiencing a type of phantom pain; her teeth hurt a lot. "it's the type of pain I felt when I had braces but worse." Neurological etiology, possibly?

And if being sick when you shouldn't be sick (her words), weren't enough, figuring out all the protocols, makes you want to retain an attorney. How long should we keep our 5 year old out of Kindergarten? She doesn't have Covid-19; I don't have Covid-19. Here's what the District requires:

district.jpg

Fun Forms:

supplemental.jpg

California doesn't seem to make a distinction between Covid-19 in the vaccinated or unvaccinated.

The California Department of Public Health (CDPH) recommends a symptom-based strategy for determining the duration of isolation for people with COVID-19 who are symptomatic, meaning they have symptoms of the disease, as described in guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Under this recommendation, persons with COVID-19 who have symptoms and were instructed to care for themselves at home may discontinue self-isolation under the following conditions:

At least 10 days have passed since symptom onset; AND
At least 24 hours have passed since resolution of fever without the use of fever-reducing medications; AND
Other symptoms have improved


For persons with COVID-19 who are asymptomatic, meaning they have NOT had any symptoms, CDPH recommends that these persons be instructed to care for themselves at home. Under this recommendation, they may discontinue self-isolation under the following conditions:

At least 10 days have passed since the date of the first positive COVID-19 diagnostic (federally approved Emergency Use Authorized molecular assay) test. If they develop symptoms, then the strategies for discontinuing self-isolation for symptomatic persons (see above) should be used.

[jimcav]

Hope the wife continues to feel better. A common cause of teeth pain is referred/brain-misinterpreted-pain from the sinuses. I had some sinus squeezes as navy diver and am prone to chronic sinusitis, and I get that deep aching, multiple teeth pain. Depending on the degree of inflammation in the sinuses, or potential bacterial infection on top of viral "head congestion" clogging up a sinus opening, that might be the cause.

The criteria to isolate when in close contact with a positive doesn't seem unclear, at least from what you clipped above with the school district requirements. I assume from your comment that "she doesn't have Covid-19. I don't have Covid-19" you both have tested neg, but your wife is the close contact positive. The twice weekly testing is a minimal strategy to catch conversion from exposure to infection, since there is a variable incubation window, and asymptomatic spread is still a big problem with how this keeps transmitting.

[Matthew Strongin]

Maybe I missed this above, but did your wife test positive @beeatnik? Glad to hear she's feeling better, either way.

[beeatnik]

Maybe I missed this above, but did your wife test positive @beeatnik? Glad to hear she's feeling better, either way.

Ya.

She was exposed 4x between Sep 2020 and Feb 2021 (2x office, babysitter, and LEO colleague). Never infected until now. Vaccinated in March. Delta is interesting.

[Octave]

She was exposed 4x pre-vaccination in March (2x office, babysitter, and LEO colleague). Never infected until now. Delta is interesting.

I am gathering from this and above posts that you are insinuating or surmising that infection is increased in likelihood by vaccination when the Delta variant is in play - am I overstepping my interpretation?

[Matthew Strongin]

Ya.

She was exposed 4x between Sep 2020 and Feb 2021 (2x office, babysitter, and LEO colleague). Never infected until now. Vaccinated in March. Delta is interesting.

Got it. Clearly she was exposed at some other point since it's now August but, yeah, Delta is interesting. I hope she continues to progress and wish you and the family all the best.

[beeatnik]

I am gathering from this and above posts that you are insinuating or surmising that infection is increased in likelihood by vaccination when the Delta variant is in play - am I overstepping my interpretation?

No, too many variables to come to that conclusion. So much of it is behavioral now; vaccinated people who don’t test and don’t believe they can infect others. That combined with Delta’s transmissibility increases opportunities for exposure. Some parallels to the early Public Health fears that mask usage would encourage riskier behavior.

[rydesteel]

Has there been any word of getting the Booster if you've had the J&J Jab? I haven't seen anything suggesting it but would be willing to get a booster if possible.

[thollandpe]

Has there been any word of getting the Booster if you've had the J&J Jab? I haven't seen anything suggesting it but would be willing to get a booster if possible.

I'm in this same holding pattern, Frank. We have multiple comorbidities in the household. Our primary care physician has given us the advice that it's not officially recommended but hey here's how you can do it. As in it's not a bad idea.

[rwsaunders]

Has there been any word of getting the Booster if you've had the J&J Jab? I haven't seen anything suggesting it but would be willing to get a booster if possible.

This was posted on CNN earlier today.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/cor...91173bbc35bf9d

[HorsCat]

Has there been any word of getting the Booster if you've had the J&J Jab? I haven't seen anything suggesting it but would be willing to get a booster if possible.

I heard mention today (on NPR) of there not being enough data to make a determination. Vast majority of vaccines in Israel and US are mRNA so there is enough / some / more data than for JJ.

[jimcav]

I'm not aware of a study on booster following J&J, but here is one (tiny study) that looked at using J&J as the 3rd (booster) after 2 Pfizer:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....11.21261670v1

Almost everything I've seen shows immunity drops after 6+ months, that antibody/immune response is higher in those infected plus vaccinated than vaccinated and never infected; and that 3 beats two vaccines in terms of immune response and protection.

Sadly, we are once again in a phase where there are many unknowns. There are current studies that show the vaccinated can shed high viral loads even thought they are greatly protected against serious illness. There are breakthrough infections, not just transmission, and some are serious. No data is out yet that I've seen as to who among the vaccinated are getting seriously ill or dying. There is enough transmission of Delta still occurring and plenty of susceptible hosts. So much so that as immunity wanes in the vaccinated elderly and those with co-morbid conditions here in the US, I fear that population may again be at risk as the race renews between their exposure to Delta and vaccination (booster). Not to mention we have to monitor for whatever comes after Delta as we are lining up for #3 while much of the world can't even line up for #1 . Delta is so prevalent than many local public health labs are not getting the variant type as part of testing, less then <10% of samples are genotyped. We could end up behind the curve again on the next variant with that level of testing, especially since much of our population just seems to refuse to do basic public health measures to limit transmission

[j44ke]

variant roulette

[fastupslowdown]

I’ve seen boosters in fall 2021 mentioned as part of the projected scenario almost since the beginning of vaccination effort. Right on time then. The surprise was when the Biden administration said they weren’t necessary back a month or two ago.

I think they knew. My guess is that they were fighting about what message to put out. The thought process was perhaps worry that talking boosters would put people off from seeking their first dose or competing with 3rd world demand. Feels remarkably similar to telling us not to wear masks for fear of depriving health care workers of masks early on in the crisis.

[j44ke]

I think they knew. My guess is that they were fighting about what message to put out. The thought process was perhaps worry that talking boosters would put people off from seeking their first dose or competing with 3rd world demand. Feels remarkably similar to telling us not to wear masks for fear of depriving health care workers of masks early on in the crisis.

They definitely knew. That's what I was saying. So the surprise was not the necessity of boosters. It was that they held back on the necessity.

What seems clear to me now is that the Biden Whitehouse wanted a two-handed approach that would only kick into gear if Pfizer had FDA approval. So that was their priority. There are a number of vaccine mandates across the country that are contingent on FDA approval of the vaccine. Once the FDA approves a vaccine (Pfizer being the closest to approval,) these mandates will go into effect, presumably increasing the number of first time vaccinated people. Then along side this, vaccinated people with waning immunity would begin to receive boosters. So FDA approval is key, and I think the Biden Whitehouse is keeping the pressure on that happening asap and resisting Pfizer's lobbying for boosters to be included under the emergency use exemption.

At least that's my read.

[robin3mj]

They definitely knew. That's what I was saying. So the surprise was not the necessity of boosters. It was that they held back on the necessity.

What seems clear to me now is that the Biden Whitehouse wanted a two-handed approach that would only kick into gear if Pfizer had FDA approval. So that was their priority. There are a number of vaccine mandates across the country that are contingent on FDA approval of the vaccine. Once the FDA approves a vaccine (Pfizer being the closest to approval,) these mandates will go into effect, presumably increasing the number of first time vaccinated people. Then along side this, vaccinated people with waning immunity would begin to receive boosters. So FDA approval is key, and I think the Biden Whitehouse is keeping the pressure on that happening asap and resisting Pfizer's lobbying for boosters to be included under the emergency use exemption.

At least that's my read.

Feds are also leaving the hard work to the states and to individual employers rather than wading into the fight. I’m in the Senior housing business (largely NOT nursing homes) and the skilled nursing announcement today could have come months ago, esp given the federal resources required to care for vulnerable people covered under MCR and MCD.
In the meantime, many of the largest operators in the space and a solid handful of states have implemented mandates.

The federal government is leading from behind right now, though I don’t have the energy to question why or how. Better late than never, I guess.

[rwsaunders]

^ Lots of back and forth around here over mandating the vaccination of nursing home employees, who’s vaccination rate is hovering between 40-50%. Given that approximately 20% (130,000) of the US Covid related deaths have been residents in nursing homes, you’d think that staff would jump on the opportunity to be vaccinated. Local news was interviewing staff who were refusing to do so for a number of reasons and an operator of 16 facilities, who said if the mandate went through, 1/2 of his staff would have to quit and that he’s already understaffed.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-n...or-all-workers

[Will Neide]

....... 1/2 of his staff would have to quit and that he’s already understaffed.

*Choose* to quit.

[rwsaunders]

*Choose* to quit.

I’m with you on this one…my wife and I were just shaking our collective heads. It’s hard for me to believe that there are not federal/state guidelines regulations in place to deal with this issue and the arrogance of those that were being interviewed, in terms of rationalizing why they could do what they please, is beyond me.