The Vaccine Thread

[beeatnik]

For everyone - there is now mounting evidence that the immunity from infection wanes over time. The unvaccinated previously infected are more vulnerable to reinfection than the fully vaccinated who never had the disease are to first time infection. .

Source?

Are you referring to the study below?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...cid=mm7032e1_w

[HorsCat]

Anecdotal data . . .

I was vaccinated with Moderna in January. My wife was vaccinated with Pfizer in February. My 15 yo and my 12 yo were both vaccinated with Pfizer in May.

My wife is now recovering from a bout with COVID. We were in NYC the weekend of July 23. We attended a wedding on July 25. About 300 people in attendance, mostly indoors, mostly unmasked. We received an email from the bride and groom on July 26 that someone at the wedding was COVID positive. My wife started feeling like she had a cold on July 27. It continued to get worse. She went for a COVID test on August 2, and received the positive result on August 3. For the most part, it was like she had a really bad cold; extreme congestion, some lethargy. She is now on the mend, though still feeling tired.

I did not contract the virus from her. Neither did my two vaccinated kids or my one unvaccinated 7 yo.

So maybe the vaccine helped her avoid a really bad infection. Maybe it stopped her from spreading it to us. Maybe the vaccines helped us. IDK.

Be careful out there.

[rwsaunders]

Our local school board voted 9-0 last evening to require masks indoors for all students, faculty, employees and visitors and the negative reaction of some of the crowd was pathetic. If you don't like it, the virtual classroom is still an option, but to shout expletives, flip the bird and give the Nazi salute on your way out the door, really? I hope that their kids get to watch the video of their parents engaging in their version of civic participation.

[bcm119]

"we hope you choose"
Do you say the same to members who endorse your opinions? Am I about to be censored for citing non-mainstream ideas about Covid?

There is absolutely nothing about your "ideas" that are non-mainstream. Anti-vaxx information and related media on youtube, tik tok, etc. is the very definition of mainstream [mis]information. It appeals to the same vulnerabilities that make all viral misinformation so irresistible: fear of the unknown, satisfaction of the lowest order of reasoning, suspicion of authority, and the smug feeling of rejecting what educated elites are saying.

Anti-vaxx misinformation is the definition of mainstream; it is to medical information what Lucky Charms are to food. It takes some intellectual self discipline to reject its siren call, but I encourage you to find the strength to resist it.

And if you unfortunately do contract Covid and find your oxygen levels dropping, you will have to make a very important choice: continue with your rejection of the big pharma products and standard medical care hospitals provide, or change your stance at the last second and enter the hospital system. After all, every product hospitals administer are manufactured by big pharma, and by your pop-logic, each product will have the same substantial chance of containing harmful byproducts.

[defspace]

Many, many bad acts again and again - Pfizer and J&J collectively have dealt with thousands of lawsuits. It makes a lot more sense to expect more "illegal claims" going forward. Wasn't it Einstein who is credited with saying something along the lines of: "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"?

Any idea of what the ratio is of problematic products to products that save lives or improve quality of life?

As someone who has repeatedly had positive health outcomes with the mainstream medical establishment, never had measles, mumps, rubella, influenza, chicken pox, hepatitis, or any other illness that I've been vaccinated against (as far as I'm aware), I guess it would insane for me to think that I'd have poor outcomes when I trust mainstream medical advice. Am I on the right track?

[beeatnik]

(mis-sed)information

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...me-2021-08-09/

The mRNA vaccine from Pfizer (PFE.N) and BioNTech (22UAy.DE) may be less effective than Moderna's against the Delta variant of the coronavirus, according to two reports posted on medRxiv on Sunday ahead of peer review. In a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System, researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection had dropped to 76% in July - when the Delta variant was predominant - from 86% in early 2021. Over the same period, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had fallen to 42% from 76%, researchers said. While both vaccines remain effective at preventing COVID hospitalization, a Moderna booster shot may be necessary soon for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, said Dr. Venky Soundararajan of Massachusetts data analytics company nference, who led the Mayo study

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/...n-a-day-676317

Some 6,275 cases were registered on Monday, with almost 5% of the 130,000 people screened testing positive – also the highest in five months.

The number of serious patients continued to increase, standing at 394 as of Tuesday morning. A week earlier they were 232. Of them, some 64 are currently on ventilators.

According to Tuesday’s update by the Health Ministry, some 16 people died on Sunday, making it the deadliest day since the beginning of April.

While the figure is still much lower than what was happening at the peak of the third wave, when at times dozens of people were killed by COVID over the course of 24 hours, it still represents a dramatic increase compared to a few weeks ago. In the whole month of June, some seven people succumbed to COVID, the August death toll already stands at 82.

Government and health officials are hoping that a significant improvement will be brought about by the third vaccine offered to Israelis over 60, to reinforce their immunization.

Since the new campaign was launched on Friday, some 600,000 people have already been inoculated.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/covid-...comment-676244

COVID-19 vaccine: Is the thrill gone or is third time a charm?
The general feeling among the over-60s who shuffled in and out was that this third vaccine was not going to be the charm, but a recurring event for as long as COVID is around.

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=76203

Mexican President Andrés Manuel López Obrador accused the pharmaceutical companies of selling vaccines under the pretext of a frightening Covid pandemic

“You have to be careful because, of course, pharmaceutical companies want to do business and therefore would like to always be selling vaccines for everyone, but we have to prioritize, we have to know if they are required or not, not be subject, subject, subordinate to That the pharmaceutical companies are the ones that tell us that we need a third dose, a fourth dose, the children need to be vaccinated, we must see scientifically if it is necessary, it is like when we are going to buy something we should not be consumers, we must buy what what is needed, not to go to the supermarket, to the self-service store buy to buy, not to waste, not to the superfluous, first the basics, first the necessary, not consumerism, then said this if it is required, then it is acquired ,But if not, because it is going to turn us into a global wave of demand because they could very well, as it involves a lot of money, scare us, saying that what a barbarity, children without vaccines! They are in a defenseless state and we must buy their vaccines… we are not going to be hostage to that, we are going to make it the basics, the necessary ”he said.

[jclay]

WE'RE #1 , GO FLORIDA!!

Daily NEW Covid Cases in FL: Repeat, that's NEW cases on the indicated day. Those who say they aren't participating via the vaccine don't get it....they're the control group!

Jan 21, 2021: 21.0 k (former record)

July 31: 21.7
Aug 6: 22.8
Aug 7: 23.9
Aug 8: 28.3
Aug 9: 28.3

Somebody needs to tell DeSantis that, like golf, low score wins, explain how exponential growth curves work, and that this will likely get expensive in human life and $$ (and on the QT, hopefully the GOP's election performance) rather quickly. Is this the current incarnation of GOP "compassionate conservatism" or, more likely, further evidence that the "Party of Personal Responsibility" has decided to abandon the pretenses.

In an entirely different context this kind of performance would be hilarious; sadly, it is not.

So, that's your Florida Covid Report, straight from the Capital City. For more news on the Sunshine state: https://floridaphoenix.com/

[Too Tall]

I had to stand and listen to a (former) friend/yogini/potsmokin' hotie/ try to tell me that DeSantis was misunderstood.

Duhfuk?

[Saab2000]

Not to get too deep in weeds and not directly related to the vaccine, but my mother and I are scheduled to fly to Europe tomorrow and as a precaution, got tested at Walgreens locally. Couldn’t have been easier through their drive-through.

Not technically required at the moment to travel, but now we have the test. Thankfully both came back negative.

We’ve been pretty much living our lives normally, mostly unmasked though it appears those are going to be part of life again and certainly will be on our flight and at the airport.

[echappist]

Our local school board voted 9-0 last evening to require masks indoors for all students, faculty, employees and visitors and the negative reaction of some of the crowd was pathetic. If you don't like it, the virtual classroom is still an option, but to shout expletives, flip the bird and give the Nazi salute on your way out the door, really? I hope that their kids get to watch the video of their parents engaging in their version of civic participation.

The Pittsburgh one or the one in Seattle? If it was the former, the reaction from some of the local crowd wouldn't surprise me at all

[rwsaunders]

The Pittsburgh one or the one in Seattle? If it was the former, the reaction from some of the local crowd wouldn't surprise me at all

Pittsburgh...great district, with some folks who when they don't get their way, act like they're the ones who belong in preschool.

[rwsaunders]

Pittsburgh...great district, with some folks who when they don't get their way, act like they're the ones who belong in preschool.

I should add that the leader of the “mask choice” contingent in this case, is an individual from a well-known Pittsburgh family who is used to using Mummy’s money to get his way. Mummy did the same thing with Grandpa’s money and Daddy runs an exclusive fly fishing camp in Montana. Don’t like the local Catholic school, start your own, claiming that the current school is too liberal. Didn’t like the Assitant School Superintendant at the public school, post information regarding the gentleman’s divorce on a “community” Facebook page, because Christians and good parents don’t divorce. Critical race theory on the curriculum? Not on my watch because I’m not a racist and I don’t need my kids to hear liberal viewpoints. Sadly, people like this are in every community and rather than engage in meaningful conversation, they bully people to make their point. Wait, didn’t we just toss someone like that from the White House? Scary, isn’t it?

[jclay]

I had to stand and listen to a (former) friend/yogini/potsmokin' hotie/ try to tell me that DeSantis was misunderstood.

Duhfuk?

Wow. Who he is, what he stands for, what he cares about, what he's doing and why are in neon lighted, plain English text you could read from the Moon!

In other news, Stacey Abrams needs our help to rescue our country from the Trump/DeSantis cabal. Please give generously:

https://secure.actblue.com/donate/fair-fight-1

https://www.facebook.com/stacey.abrams.77

[beeatnik]

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-va...eeffectiveness


A new preprint study that raises concerns about the mRNA vaccines' effectiveness against Delta — particularly Pfizer's — has already grabbed the attention of top Biden administration officials.

What they're saying: The study found the Pfizer vaccine was only 42% effective against infection in July, when the Delta variant was dominant. "If that's not a wakeup call, I don't know what is," a senior Biden official told Axios.

Overall, it found that the Moderna vaccine was 86% effective against infection over the study period, and Pfizer's was 76%. Moderna's vaccine was 92% effective against hospitalization and Pfizer's was 85%.
But the vaccines' effectiveness against infection dropped sharply in July, when the Delta variant's prevalence in Minnesota had risen to over 70%.
Moderna was 76% effective against infection, and Pfizer was only 42% effective.
The study found similar results in other states. For example, in Florida, the risk of infection in July for people fully vaccinated with Moderna was about 60% lower than for people fully vaccinated with Pfizer.




Octave, can we infer that waning efficacy against infection could lead to waning efficacy against severe outcomes for vulnerable individuals?

[Octave]

Octave, can we infer that waning efficacy against infection could lead to waning efficacy against severe outcomes for vulnerable individuals?

Not necessarily, no. The immune response is complicated, but for simplicity let's say that it has two major branches: kill/destroy the virus, and launch an immune response to mobilize inflammatory messengers et al which modulate the body's response to the impacts of the virus. The reason that the efficacy % values you read are different for infection, transmission, and disease severity, is that vaccines produce a whole host of antibodies, some of which are dedicated to one of these major branches, and others to the other. So-called "killer antibodies" are those that will eliminate the virus, which reduces the likelihood of infection as well as transmission (and viral replication, the source of variants we discuss so often now). Other antibodies have no ability to launch an attack on the virus itself, but rather work to kick the body into gear for fighting the effects of the virus. No one has done this level of antibody profiling with these vaccines, so we don't really know which biomarkers would indicate one pathway vs the other.

[beeatnik]

Not necessarily, no. The immune response is complicated, but for simplicity let's say that it has two major branches: kill/destroy the virus, and launch an immune response to mobilize inflammatory messengers et al which modulate the body's response to the impacts of the virus. The reason that the efficacy % values you read are different for infection, transmission, and disease severity, is that vaccines produce a whole host of antibodies, some of which are dedicated to one of these major branches, and others to the other. So-called "killer antibodies" are those that will eliminate the virus, which reduces the likelihood of infection as well as transmission (and viral replication, the source of variants we discuss so often now). Other antibodies have no ability to launch an attack on the virus itself, but rather work to kick the body into gear for fighting the effects of the virus. No one has done this level of antibody profiling with these vaccines, so we don't really know which biomarkers would indicate one pathway vs the other.

Appreciate the reply.

Since as you mentioned the immune response is complicated and not just dependent on one type of antibody response, wouldn't that inspire confidence in the protection provided by natural immunity? Also, if you've reviewed the Kentucky study, any thoughts on the conclusion/findings? They're comparing two groups of (possibly) previously infected individuals and concluding that previous infection along with vaccination provides extra protection compared to previous infection only. But are they extrapolating to conclude that previous infection alone is not as robust as vaccination without previous infection? Apologies for the, um, clunkiness of the question.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...mm7032e1-H.pdf

[vertical_doug]

I've flown London->NYC in April 2020, November 2020 and today. International travel is picking up, but still way below normal standards out of Heathrow.

Time Machine-

March/April 2020



Pretty much the entire day fit on a 1 1/2 screens in the terminal.





And who could forget the full plastic body covering the Chinese students were wearing for their trip home....

November 2020 (UK announces second Lockdown)



No duty free and I think the airport was even emptier than the spring



August 2021


Well, at least the flight board doesn't fit on the screens anymore as many more flights.





Nothing like a little Duty Free Revenge Shopping ....




The £75 PCR Test 72 hrs pre-flight is still a pain, but at least this time when I fly back, because I am double vaccinated, I only have to do a day 2 PCR test.
My return trip in May 2021, I have a PCR Pre-test in the US, and a day 2, 5, 8 PCR test in UK which set me back £560. So progress....

[Octave]

Appreciate the reply.

Since as you mentioned the immune response is complicated and not just dependent on one type of antibody response, wouldn't that inspire confidence in the protection provided by natural immunity? Also, if you've reviewed the Kentucky study, any thoughts on the conclusion/findings? They're comparing two groups of (possibly) previously infected individuals and concluding that previous infection along with vaccination provides extra protection compared to previous infection only. But are they extrapolating to conclude that previous infection alone is not as robust as vaccination without previous infection? Apologies for the, um, clunkiness of the question.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...mm7032e1-H.pdf

The study you're referring to here is a deeply complex situation - the time-span across which these people experienced infection A and infection B, coupled with the variability in antibody production, the emergence of new variants (what were they infected with in A and what in B?), and the fact that they pooled cohorts receiving three different vaccines (Pfizer, Janssen, Moderna...)

I think the insinuation that protection derived from previous infection alone is not as robust as vaccination without previous infection is correct. This has been shown in a few data sets so far. Whether reinfection + vaccination is superior is another question: antibody titers are higher in previously infected people after they receive the vaccine as compared to uninfected who receive the same vaccine, and exposure to more than one "variant" (i.e. the actual infection and the antibody profiling elicited by the vaccine).

[Todd Amunrud]

“Since as you mentioned the immune response is complicated and not just dependent on one type of antibody response, wouldn't that inspire confidence in the protection provided by natural immunity?”

I think one misconception is that “natural immunity” and immunity from vaccinations are different. They both activate the same “natural” systems within our body. Vaccinations allow a measured response.

[Octave]

I think one misconception is that “natural immunity” and immunity from vaccinations are different. They both activate the same “natural” systems within our body. Vaccinations allow a measured response.

Immunity from vaccinations and trained immunity via exposure to the virus are in fact different in most cases.
Those medically versed in the immune response will note that comparing across diseases is really faux-pas - trained immunity differs between diseases, and the immune response differs between vaccines (both the type of vaccine and the targeted disease). That being said, here's an example: the TB vaccine is recommended for delivery at birth in healthy children. Infant mortality decreases, both from TB and all-cause mortality. In fact, it was later discovered that the TB vaccine reduced the odds of developing leprosy, and a form of bladder cancer. Why? The bacteria used (BCG) for the vaccine induces a more complex response of monocytes and natural-killer (NK) cells that responds to several types of host infection, not just TB.

The vaccines we are using for addressing the COVID-19 pandemic are more specific than the above example, but until more is known about the nitty-gritty of the antibody response amongst Sars-CoV-2 vaccinated individuals both at the time of vaccination and at the time of re-exposure to a significant viral load, it is very difficult to say whether innate and learned immunity are that similar. At face value, it would not be surprising if previous infection + vaccination provided a more long-lasting and robust response to future exposure than vaccination alone. A similarly divalent response has been seen in pertussis vaccinations (infection-acquired immunity provides longer-lasting protection than vaccine-acquired immunity, in that case).