2020 Political Chatter

[Too Tall]

Don't under-sell "owning the libs" and "having alot of fun doing it".

[bigbill]

Thanks. I've started wading through Pollard's "The Lost Cause: A New Southern History of the War of the Confederates" from 1866.

He was the instigator of the Lost Cause before the war ended.

[monadnocky]

Betsy DeVos has resigned, stating that "impressionable children are watching."

This will surely cement her legacy as advocate to impressionable children everywhere.

[bigbill]

As for the statement of "we are they", I just hope you aren't forgetting that People of color and black people are the We as well, and black people and POC are not the white supremacists. So no, not all We are they.

No, I stand by that statement. The white supremacists are the poster children of racism, but all of us are "they" because we accepted it. As for African-Americans and POC's, they have to be part of the solution as well. White Flight by Kevin M. Kruse is a good read.

[vvv321]

No, I stand by that statement. The white supremacists are the poster children of racism, but all of us are "they" because we accepted it. As for African-Americans and POC's, they have to be part of the solution as well. White Flight by Kevin M. Kruse is a good read.

Black people and POC have been trying to get people, like you, to listen to them for hundreds of years, and frankly are the only people worth listening to on this topic, but have entirely been ignored, dismissed, degraded, and called all sorts of names the entire time, Also murdered by white people. They have not been just accepting it, they have been the ones fighting it.

Maybe you should try listening, reading and learning from, something that's not from a white, male, perspective.

[bigbill]

Black people and POC have been trying to get people, like you, to listen to them for hundreds of years, and frankly are the only people worth listening to on this topic, but have entirely been ignored, dismissed, degraded, and called all sorts of names the entire time, Also murdered by white people. They have not been just accepting it, they have been the ones fighting it.

Maybe you should try listening, reading and learning from, something that's not from a white, male, perspective.

And with that, the civility ended. You probably haven't read the earlier posts, I'm finishing up my thesis on the Lost Cause and systemic racism, for the last year and a half, my life has been consumed by reading all kinds of perspectives on systemic racism and the root cause.

[vvv321]

And with that, the civility ended. You probably haven't read the earlier posts, I'm finishing up my thesis on the Lost Cause and systemic racism, for the last year and a half, my life has been consumed by reading all kinds of perspectives on systemic racism and the root cause.

And yet you still think that POC and Black people have work to do? And haven't been fighting and dying to make America what it says it was since the time of slavery. Terrifying.

[HorsCat]

Black people and POC have been trying to get people, like you, to listen to them for hundreds of years, and frankly are the only people worth listening to on this topic, but have entirely been ignored, dismissed, degraded, and called all sorts of names the entire time, Also murdered by white people. They have not been just accepting it, they have been the ones fighting it.

Maybe you should try listening, reading and learning from, something that's not from a white, male, perspective.

IMO, @bigbill strikes me as a white guy who is open to the notion that "white privilege" is an actual thing. That's a view held by a disappointingly small number of the white folks I know. If @bigbill made his thesis available to the Salon, I would love to read it.

And yet you still think that POC and Black people have work to do? And haven't been fighting and dying to make America what it says it was since the time of slavery. Terrifying.

A distinction should be made between what @bigbill said - ie, "African-Americans and POC's . . . need to be part of the solution" - and "have work to do."

[vvv321]

A distinction should be made between what @bigbill said - ie, "African-Americans and POC's . . . need to be part of the solution" - and "have work to do."

I think bigbill is big enough to fight his own fights, and has had ample opportunity to respond himself. He just doubled and tripled down.

I'll say it again though, black people and POC have been doing the work since they were in chains,all the while, white people have been murdering and disparaging them.


Perhaps we should put the onus on the oppressor not the oppressed?

[HorsCat]

I think bigbill is big enough to fight his own fights, and has had ample opportunity to respond himself. He just doubled and tripled down.

I'll say it again though, black people and POC have been doing the work since they were in chains,all the while, white people have been murdering and disparaging them.



Perhaps we should put the onus on the oppressor not the oppressed?

I'm sure bigbill is big enough to fight his own fights, but it seems to me like you unfairly accused him. I'll step out from in between you and him now.

As for your larger point, absolutely, the onus is on white America and white Americans. You'll be hard pressed to find a white person more sympathetic to that viewpoint than me. And the impetus for change - real, meaningful change - will have to come from white America and white Americans. Still, black Americans will need to be "part of the solution," whatever that means.

[theflashunc]

White America has work to do, and a lot of heavy lifting at that. Asking anyone else to help reckon with systemic racism and injustice of centuries of white supremacy is an unfair deflection from the hard reckoning every white person needs to have about the system created for their benefit.

Once we reckon with that, then all of us can figure out how to build a truly just and equitable society. But white people gotta do the work first, because the problem rests solely with us.

[vvv321]

As for your larger point, absolutely, the onus is on white America and white Americans. You'll be hard pressed to find a white person more sympathetic to that viewpoint than me. And the impetus for change - real, meaningful change - will have to come from white America and white Americans. Still, black Americans will need to be "part of the solution," whatever that means.

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree, because Black people and POC are rightfully tired of trying to get white people to do the right thing, stop oppressing and murdering them.

To say that they need to be part of the solution is more than insulting. It's kind of sad such woke people can't see that.

However white supremacy takes many forms, not all of them on display on Wednesday.

[Mark Walberg]

Probably way-way off topic, but I'm finishing up my capstone/thesis on the Lost Cause myth. Following the Civil War, Southern "historians" created an alternative history to justify the destruction of their economy and way of life. They did it with blame. Robert E. Lee would have won at Gettysburg but General Longstreet's actions lost the battle. This isn't true, but it protected the deification of Lee by shifting blame. Lee was a poor tactician and sacrificed his men because he wouldn't listen to his advisors. Pence is Longstreet. Trump has been deified by his rabid followers, my neighborhood is dotted with flags bearing his image. Now the game is blame because Trump is surely incapable of failure. So now, he has destroyed the Republican party because of his actions, the rationalization and alternate history will increase in the next year. I hope we're smarter this time, but we won't be.

Thanks for pointing out this use of manufactured blame to rewrite history for political purposes.
People need to know how to see this for what it is. Trump is obviously using this to the max, all the time. Of course, he is not the only one. It is everywhere.
Thanks also for the reading list you posted later in the thread. I will read these.
Everyone should be constantly working on their skills to see this.

[bigbill]

I think bigbill is big enough to fight his own fights, and has had ample opportunity to respond himself. He just doubled and tripled down.

I'll say it again though, black people and POC have been doing the work since they were in chains,all the while, white people have been murdering and disparaging them.


Perhaps we should put the onus on the oppressor not the oppressed?

Not really ample opportunity, I'm at work and responding when I can. My work begins before the Civil War ends, Reconstruction, the election of Hayes which resulted in the removal of Union Troops from the South, the 1881 beginning of Jim Crow Laws, Plessy v Ferguson and the Supreme Court validating segregation, building of Confederate monuments beginning in the 1890s, acts of racial violence before WW I, lynching (using the NAACP data base), influence of the Lost Cause myth on textbooks, desegregation with Brown v Board of Education, Civil Rights Movement, and an entire section dedicated to the Revisionist Historians who are identifying the lies in American History and educating those who will listen. We as a nation, need to be educated in how systemic racism became part of our culture. Everyone needs to know the history because for many generations, it was not taught in schools.

My work isn't about the current state of systemic racism, it is a root cause of how we got here.

A semester ago, I was assigned to write a historiographic essay on some event in twentieth century American History. I chose the Civil Rights Movement because I knew my knowledge was weak in that subject. In writing a 30 page essay, my research reached back to the 1890s and Plessy v Ferguson to the mid 1960s. It really opened my eyes and mind on how much is not taught or is common knowledge. We know the name of the plane that dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, but do we teach that African-Americans were burned at the stake for crimes they didn't commit? How did our culture allow this, what mindset made this okay? That is the crux of what I'm working on.

I am as outraged as anyone concerning systemic racism, I chose to use my thesis to research and hopefully publish journal articles that will teach.

[thollandpe]

Start with Ibram X. Kendi, How To Be An Antiracist. It is a very insightful perspective on racism in America.

It is well worth noting here, that out of all the authors mentioned since the request for reading suggestions was made — Gary W. Gallagher, Alan T. Nolan, Edward H. Bonekemper III, Adam H. Domby, Kevin M. Kruse, Edward A. Pollard, and Ibram X. Kendi — Dr. Kendi is he only one who appears to be Black.

We can all do a better job listening. Diversity is a good thing. In viewpoints, in ideas, and in sources.

https://twitter.com/newshour/status/...490323456?s=21

[colker]

Stocking one third of the federal judiciary, including the Supreme Court, with young, über right wing ideologues isn’t “nothing.” From the perspective of Moscow Mitch and the Heritage Foundation, it is a resounding “Mission Accomplished.” Plus, time will tell if they are destroyed. I’ve been hearing about the death of the GOP for the better part of five years and am still waiting (hoping) for it to happen. The 2020 election wasn’t the GOP smack down it needed to be and the Ds’ control of both the House and Senate could not be more tenuous.

The Republican Party now signs as Destruction of American Democracy Party. Does that have a future?

[Tom]

Yeah, it does unfortunately. Some people voted for Trump twice. And not just in the same election!

[HorsCat]

The Republican Party now signs as Destruction of American Democracy Party. Does that have a future?

Based on the fact that (i) 75,000,000 people voted for Chump, (ii) the GOP expanded the number of seats it has in the House, and (iii) the Ds eked out a majority in the Senate only by dint of (x) special elections, (y) two awful GOP candidates and (z) the Chump Clown and Sedition Show, I'd say that, unfortunately, it would be naïve to think that it doesn't.

[colker]

Black people and POC have been trying to get people, like you, to listen to them for hundreds of years, and frankly are the only people worth listening to on this topic, but have entirely been ignored, dismissed, degraded, and called all sorts of names the entire time, Also murdered by white people. They have not been just accepting it, they have been the ones fighting it.

Maybe you should try listening, reading and learning from, something that's not from a white, male, perspective.

If racism can only be addressed correctly by black people then there will always be racism because it´s a white x black problem. If you remove a common ground then it´s only conflict and we know which side is the weakest. Your perspective is illogical, to put it mildly.

[vertical_doug]

If racism can only be addressed correctly by black people then there will always be racism because it´s a white x black problem. If you remove a common ground then it´s only conflict and we know which side is the weakest. Your perspective is illogical, to put it mildly.

You are being reactionary. Simply stating if we want to have a discussion on racism maybe we can start by listening to POC instead of lecturing them.
It's like mansplaining to my wife and daughter about something.

It's like a rich person explaining to someone why they are poor.....