2020 Political Chatter

[murphy]

well, the disturbing thing is that now: even questioning these shady results via an American election....is gas lighted by the media and the winners as being un-american and anti democratic...that's crazy...and to be honest, if you look at the numbers rolling in for Joe late in the game it is certainly ok to look into that...I actually voted for Biden...but it ain't about my team winning...I have seen south american dictators do a better job at faking an election and making it seem more real than this game...the point is what sorta country do you want to live in and how far you are going to lose your values for a win as regimes will certainly change...and new values are set up...i.e precedent and the ongoing...short term gains usually in life lead to hard head on turns...and crashes...self interest and doing the right thing ideally don't have to be so disconnected...well, ideally...hopefully...again, I voted for Biden...but this mob mentality with the help with media is going to go badly...just my thought...

You must be confused. The gaslighting has been from Trump's side for months; he has been saying how it was rigged, there was fraud, etc. And on election day he claims he won states which he did not and claims overall victory. Now he is having his lawyers throw spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks with their multitude of lawsuits which are getting thrown out of court for guess what? Lack of evidence.

If we want to talk about dangerous precedents, let's just look at everything Trump and his team are doing.

[72gmc]

well, the disturbing thing is that now: even questioning these shady results via an American election....is gas lighted by the media and the winners as being un-american and anti democratic...that's crazy...and to be honest, if you look at the numbers rolling in for Joe late in the game it is certainly ok to look into that...I actually voted for Biden...but it ain't about my team winning...I have seen south american dictators do a better job at faking an election and making it seem more real than this game...the point is what sorta country do you want to live in and how far you are going to lose your values for a win as regimes will certainly change...and new values are set up...i.e precedent and the ongoing...short term gains usually in life lead to hard head on turns...and crashes...self interest and doing the right thing ideally don't have to be so disconnected...well, ideally...hopefully...again, I voted for Biden...but this mob mentality with the help with media is going to go badly...just my thought...

This election was called as they have been called for decades. Even more carefully, I'd say. If you have a distrust of the outlets reporting the results, either on your own or fueled by the rhetoric from the current administration, that doesn't make this election an outlier. That also doesn't make it inappropriate to call shenanigans and ask for proof. The antipathy you're sensing is well earned, though, because the person calling foul has done so for years while producing no viable proof. What's worth considering now is how baseless claims of unfairness will undermine a common understanding of a fair election.

[echappist]

well, the disturbing thing is that now: even questioning these shady results via an American election....is gas lighted by the media and the winners as being un-american and anti democratic...that's crazy...and to be honest, if you look at the numbers rolling in for Joe late in the game it is certainly ok to look into that...I actually voted for Biden...but it ain't about my team winning...I have seen south american dictators do a better job at faking an election and making it seem more real than this game...the point is what sorta country do you want to live in and how far you are going to lose your values for a win as regimes will certainly change...and new values are set up...i.e precedent and the ongoing...short term gains usually in life lead to hard head on turns...and crashes...self interest and doing the right thing ideally don't have to be so disconnected...well, ideally...hopefully...again, I voted for Biden...but this mob mentality with the help with media is going to go badly...just my thought...

B/c the in-person ballots were counted first, and the mail-in votes were counted later. That's why the latter is "late in the game".

And why were they not processed sooner? B/c the GOP-controlled state legislatures made it that way. One could very well believe that this was intentional, as to give appearances of impropriety, when there was none.

Nevermind that the incumbent's own attorney admitted in federal court that the whole process was conducted in the presence of GOP observers

Under Pennsylvania election law, each political party and candidate is entitled to have a representative “in the room” to watch ballots being counted. Braced for conspiracy theories, city authorities also live-streamed the count online.

At the city’s federal courthouse on Thursday evening, attorneys for Trump asked a judge to issue an emergency order to stop the count, alleging that all Republican observers had been barred.

Under sharp questioning from Judge Paul S. Diamond, however, they conceded that Trump in fact had “a nonzero number of people in the room,” leaving Diamond audibly exasperated.

“I’m sorry, then what’s your problem?” asked Diamond, who was appointed to the federal bench by President George W. Bush. Denying Trump’s request, Diamond struck a deal for 60 observers from each party to be allowed inside.

At one point on Friday afternoon, 12 Republican observers and five Democrats were watching the count, according to a ballot counter who was working.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...54b_story.html

[Bob Ross]

Glass Half-Empty Man warns:

The Constitution, states’ laws, and precedent indicates that if there was indeed a legitimate dispute and a state couldn’t certify their election by December 14, state legislatures could use that “uncertainty” to select their own slate of electors. There are Republican state legislatures in Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona. Trump doesn’t need to win in Court. He simply needs to tie things up in enough of those states until December 14 when legislatures appoint electors to cast ballots for their states. That is why he is claiming fraud and irregularities with no evidence. He told us months ago that if he lost the election, he was going to do this. He is now doing it.

https://www.newsandguts.com/opinion-...ing-right-now/

[theflashunc]

well, the disturbing thing is that now: even questioning these shady results via an American election....is gas lighted by the media and the winners as being un-american and anti democratic...that's crazy...and to be honest, if you look at the numbers rolling in for Joe late in the game it is certainly ok to look into that...I actually voted for Biden...but it ain't about my team winning...I have seen south american dictators do a better job at faking an election and making it seem more real than this game...the point is what sorta country do you want to live in and how far you are going to lose your values for a win as regimes will certainly change...and new values are set up...i.e precedent and the ongoing...short term gains usually in life lead to hard head on turns...and crashes...self interest and doing the right thing ideally don't have to be so disconnected...well, ideally...hopefully...again, I voted for Biden...but this mob mentality with the help with media is going to go badly...just my thought...

Because the results at this point belie the very thesis they're putting out there.

1) If this election was rigged by Democrats, wouldn't they have done a better job of it? Losing House seats and likely failing to gain control of the Senate doesn't exactly look like a bag job.
2) Republicans aren't questioning all the election results, just the ones for the Presidency. If fraud happened, it would be widespread, broad based fraud, no? But the GOP seems just fine with all the races they won. It's a mental hypocrisy of the highest order. Martha McSally currently refuses to concede the Arizona Senate race to Mark Kelly, even though she trails by over 80,000 votes with 50,000 left to count. There's no universe where she wins.
3) Yes, there was a polling error in this election similar to 2016's, but Biden was also outperforming Trump in the polling at a margin beyond what Hillary had then. As many pundits pointed out, Biden could absorb a 2016-sized polling error and still win.
4) The GOP, now going on a week after the election, have not produced any substantive evidence of the claims they're making. There's simply no evidence to back up the wild shit they're saying on the regular. Strong claims demand strong evidence to support them, otherwise it's just people screeching into the void.

It's not the media's job to pretend this wild claims are some traditional "both sides have equally valid points here." One side is clearly pointing to what appears to be a normal election -- with a wider margin of victory in the contested states than Trump had in 2016 and got a rather quick concession from Clinton -- and acting accordingly, while the other side are proverbial baboons flinging shit against the cage wall and wondering why none of it will stick.

[caleb]

Glass Half-Empty Man warns:



https://www.newsandguts.com/opinion-...ing-right-now/

Top GOP officials in PA have already said they're not going to the legislature.

[Bob Ross]

Top GOP officials in PA have already said they're not going to the legislature.

Meaning they're not going to send their own slate of electors? or not even going to go to the conclave where they would select those electors?

iow, is ^^^that good news for non-Republicans?

[vvv321]

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/132...zLRr__VMjK_9JM

"There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration. Right. The world is watching what's taking place. We're gonna count all the votes. When the process is completed, they'll be electors selected. There's a process, the constitution lays it out pretty clearly. The world should have every confidence that the transition necessary to make sure that the State Department is functional today, successful today and successful with a president who's in office on January 20 a minute after noon will also be successful."

[Loknor]

Meaning they're not going to send their own slate of electors? or not even going to go to the conclave where they would select those electors?

iow, is ^^^that good news for non-Republicans?

Nobody wants their head on a pike, certainly not established top officials.

The theatrics at display are horrible for sure, but this is going to end in a peaceful (but disgraceful) transfer of power.

Or the legal take:

https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/s...42424016621569

[echappist]

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/132...zLRr__VMjK_9JM

"There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration. Right. The world is watching what's taking place. We're gonna count all the votes. When the process is completed, they'll be electors selected. There's a process, the constitution lays it out pretty clearly. The world should have every confidence that the transition necessary to make sure that the State Department is functional today, successful today and successful with a president who's in office on January 20 a minute after noon will also be successful."

For those who didn't click through, the quoted statement came from Sec Pompeo (emphasis added). Literally cannot tell if it was a slip of tongue or if he meant it (I think it's the latter).

I need a paper bag and some alprazolam. Fortunately, my doctor just prescribed me 10 pills, but I may be out before the month is over (the previous 10 lasted me half an year, for sleep purposes).

I'm a very simple man: I just want to follow some cycling and European soccer, but the front page news is giving me way more jitters than the Spring Classics or the Champions League could ever give me.

[bcm119]

Nobody wants their head on a pike, certainly not established top officials.

The theatrics at display are horrible for sure, but this is going to end in a peaceful (but disgraceful) transfer of power.

Or the legal take:

https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/s...42424016621569

When he says "Congress will count the vote", is that something that must happen within a specified timeframe per enforceable law, or something McConnell has control of?

[Loknor]

When he says "Congress will count the vote", is that something that must happen within a specified timeframe per enforceable law, or something McConnell has control of?

I could check, but does it matter? I refuse to believe McConnell will incite civil war for Trump. Blowing up the republic when he has a sScotus and a Senate majority? He's way too smart for that.

And than we have the donor class... The whole world congratulated Biden, the USA going Banana republic is very bad for business. I'm not seeing anyone stepping up and do a "Industrials for the American Empire" move... the dynamics aren't there at all.

It will be shit, it will be disgraceful, but Biden will be the President of the US. And then the right will smear him, rally around stolen elections. McConnel will let the Democrats pound sand. Yaddayaddayadda.

Cui Bono.

[echappist]

I could check, but does it matter? I refuse to believe McConnell will incite civil war for Trump. Blowing up the republic when he has a sScotus and a Senate majority? He's way too smart for that.

And than we have the donor class... The whole world congratulated Biden, the USA going Banana republic is very bad for business. I'm not seeing anyone stepping up and do a "Industrials for the American Empire" move... the dynamics aren't there at all.

It will be shit, it will be disgraceful, but Biden will be the President of the US. And then the right will smear him, rally around stolen elections. McConnel will let the Democrats pound sand. Yaddayaddayadda.

Cui Bono.

I would generally agree with this, except for the fact that we are dealing with opportunists who want to indulge in cakeism, specifically someone who thinks that he can gain additional support by not outright quashing ambitions of the extreme wing of his party, while believing that those ambitions are never going to come to fruition.

Except these sort of principle-less politicians might just end up surprising themselves (and the rest of us). Most recent example from history would be Brexit. PM Cameron never intended to have Brexit take place. His whole reason for letting that plebiscite take place was to appease the Brexit wing of the Tories. He doesn't want to lose the support of the Brexit wing, and he also didn't want to outright rebuke the Brexit wing, so he devised (what seemed to him) a clever plan of letting the electorate rebuke the Brexit wing. A cynical ploy, to be sure.

Except due to the various motivations of the electorate and other issues, the electorate approved Brexit. PM Cameron never intended this outcome to happen, but when he refused to make the principled stand when it was in his power to do so, he opened Pandora's Box, and the rest is history. PM Cameron gets to weasel (or is it whistle) his way out, while the rest of the country has to pick up the pieces.

I certainly hope that something similar does not occur in the U.S., but when people like Senators McConnell and Graham indulge the incumbent's conspiracy theories, things can easily spiral out of their control and lead to some really spectacularly shite consequences. Those two will be largely sheltered from the consequences (just like the PM Cameron was), but I can't say the same for the rest of us.

[Loknor]

But Brexit wasn't war. Indeed, Brexit was great for the political elite (no matter the side...) and for some of the Donor class. At worst it certainly wasn't ruinous for the donor class as they just pack up their business if need be and put up their camp across the channel.

But war in America? That's really hurting the bottom line. You can not compare this with Brexit even though that was boilerplate populism at it's finest.

If you ask me this question around 2040 when climate trouble engulfs the world? I don't dare to say it will remain stable, nor do I deny there's being done a lot of damage. McConnel is reckless, as he knows better. But right now I don't see civil war around the corner.

Just trying to be a voice of reason ;)

[rowdyhillrambler]

Alright alright...

Explain to me possible ways that this guy stays in White House..

I’m guessing that the Republicans are just falling in line not to seem week to their constituents, they will eventually admit defeat..

Also-how the fuck does it happen that the electoral college does not have to vote the way that the people voted??? What’s the fucking point of voting then. Some Q frootloop thinks it’s rigged and just say, ‘bah here’s my vote for DJT’..

How can he win?

Also if it’s still in court on January 20-Pelosi becomes interim President??? No way Red let’s that happen

Is this just hard ball and posturing?

Red can’t just say ‘fraud’ he’s still the President.. I fucking hate this-

[bcm119]

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.
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Just trying to be a voice of reason ;)

Thank you for that.

And yet, without knowing details about the complexity of election laws and the many steps that need to happen between now and Biden being sworn in... the patterns of behavior over the past 4 years combined with repeated situations in which Dems find themselves on their heels... I am not feeling relaxed. If there is the slightest gray area to exploit, it will be exploited. That's the lesson we seem to never learn.

[j44ke]

NYTimes works the phones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/u...gtype=Homepage

[BBB]

The difficulty of course is that a legal action is different than making unsupported assertions in press conferences or typing jibberish on Twitter and the person you have to persuade is not (inserting generalisation) an under-employed, overweight white person in the boondocks. Trump and his team have to convince multiple Judges across multiple states that their case is a good one to stand a chance of changing (somehow) the result. While I understand there are some technical legal points that have been raised, the underlying theme of voter fraud or some form of malfeasance on election night (and after) is not supported by evidence. All Trump and Co have managed to do is get his more rabid followers worked up and cast doubt on the electoral process. I think this is a long way off an electoral victory and all it will achieve is ensuring deep divisions remain once Biden takes office in 2021.

[72gmc]

I think it's a twofer: string out the lawsuits to maximize donations now, and plant suspicion good and deep so it sticks. Use the donations and simmering paranoia to cue up a 2024 run.

[BBB]

A fool and their money are easily parted. If you want to donate to pay for law suits and campaign debt, feel free to waste your money.