Who will challenge Trump? Who you like?

[Corso]

Thought it was time to move this topic out of the impeachment thread. I thought something along these lines was already around, but perhaps that was an old one.

So now that the primaries have begun, what are your thoughts? Bernie? Pete? Amy? Liz? Joe?

What do you think they can actually deliver on, campaign promise-wise?

Talk to me!

[JJohnson]

Bernie.

Bernie would beat Trump.

Who can deliver on their promises? I don't think anyone besides Bernie or Liz has any radical type of promise. Pete, Amy, and Joe all have status quo campaign promises. Those, I'm sure, would be easy to deliver on.

It'd be difficult for Bernie or Liz to deliver on promises in 4 years without a blue House and Senate. There would be too much big money opposition to get things done, especially without the use of executive orders. They would move the needle in the right direction, though, without a doubt.

[HorsCat]

Sanders will lose handily to Trump.

Buttigieg's age is a liability.

Klobuchar is a relative unknown. On paper I like her.

Biden is done (and couldn't get it done, IMO). So, too, Warren.

Which leaves us with Bloomberg. I like his chances against Trump. I'd prefer not to have a billionaire but at least he's a real one, self-made, and a good leader to boot. The debates would be entertaining, but my guess is that Trump is too much of a coward to attend.

[Scott G.]

My guy, Sherrod Brown is waiting to run against Ivanka in 2024.
DJT's pick is the Crotchety Comrade, according to the rally speech
I heard. Thomas Friedman endorsed Bloomberg, so Bloomberg
is doomed.

Hillary will ride to the rescue at the convention, resulting in
a Jeremy Corbyn level defeat of the Dems.

See you 2024.

[jerk]

i should really keep these stupid opinions to myself because they're not going to do anything except get me into fights, be misunderstood, and what good is it anyway?

i'm a socialist. i'm a white cis man with all the privilege an asshole with that background could hope to have. the proverbial megaphone that's culturally and historically and economically attached to my mouth is super loud and clear and my voice lets me get far more of what i want than I deserve and I don't even recognize the half of it.

that being said i don't like Bernie. He won't beat Trump and if by a miracle he did- he would be a terrible leader for this country without a drastic reversal of his most popular policies and a total reshaping of the way in which he sees the world.


I wrote the following in a private conversation to a bunch of pals. I hope you can take it for what it is- just another dumb white dude's attempt to make sense of this country and where we're at and where we're going.

Bernie is a racist just like I'm a racist. It's really neither of our faults- he like most white men of his generation just have been white American men their whole lives and lived most of their life in a world that white hetero middle class wasp male isn't a thing. it's just the baseline normal. George Washington wasn't the first WASP president- Donald Trump is and guys like Bernie fail to see that.

African-Americans are for the most part going to stay home if Bernie is the nominee and the few that don't might vote for Trump because in terms of racial issues he's actually about 100x more aware of them than Bernie is. (He's on the wrong side of almost all of them- but he does inhabit a world where Race is an actual thing in a way I don't feel Bernie does.)

Frankly- if you're a young Black man or woman- it's got to be fucking appalling to see a bunch of white liberals championing a socialism which honestly believes its primary focus should be the wholesale forgiveness of voluntary heavily federally subsidized debt- that uniformly was used to position middle and upper class white americans in ever increasing positions of power and wealth. University education turns up the volume and increases the power of the megaphone that is culturally installed upon the mouth of every CIS white man in this country. These types incurred some debt that was heavily subsidized by the backbreaking labor of black and brown women and men- in order to increase their power and now they want ALL that shit forgiven? Where are we taking that money from? Bernie says our inflated defense budget? Oh- ok we'll shrink the only governmental institution in this country that fosters equality, fights racism, produces working class people who are tolerant, educated and skilled, and demographically is more african american, more hispanic, more immigrant, more working class, and even more female than just about any industry in this country. Not to mention when Uncle Sam is the client- companies need to live up to the standards that all our companies ought to. Defense contractors have to allow labor unions, they have to have women on their boards, they have to generally make their shit for living wages here in this country and they have to be stable and show that they will exist for the long term. They also make things and employ people and advance technology and can't simply chase stock dividends and move paper for profit. If you've got a contract to privide a dozen Littoral class cruisers- Bath Ironworks needs to hire welders, machinists, and a host of other skilled workers for years if not decades to deliver those ships. They're not short selling futures or bundling sub-prime mortages. They're employing people- following strict federal guidelines that generally favor the worker more than other industries, and local communities benefit when a bunch of folks are bringing home 60-150,000 a year. You make that much money in America and you spend it all- and you spend it all here. It's not sitting in a bank or getting magically changed into make believe things that only exist in terms of 0s and 1s... but I digress.

I'm not saying the military is good- but its actually a hell of a lot better than just about anything private industry has ever produced- and drastically shrinking it without investing in similar public programs that foster citizenship, education, our best american values, and force americans of all backgrounds to work with and depend and identify with each other is absurd. Especially when the money will be used to just further help people who really don't need to be any more enabled.

Even the healthcare thing comes across towards working class americans and people of color as a conceit that yet again- is going to redistribute income to benefit middle class and upper class white Americans.

Warren's policies speak much more eloquently to the structural issues of late capitalism and are far more in tune with the realities of the issues facing women, people of color, and other oppressed peoples in our country. I wish Bernie were Colker's Nazi stereotype of a Jew we saw in another thread. Were he cosmopolitan intellectual, international, and secular in a modernist sense- he wouldn't be able to continually inhabit this fantasy world of a 1950s Wallace Democrat. This country isnt a country just for middle class white men anymore- and if we do right by that group- the old conceit that every other group will also do better has been systematically disproven. We could almost convince ourselves thirty years ago that the natural progression of American was that every group here (with the exception of African-Americans and Native Americans who didn't become part of this thing of their own accord) becomes essentially a White CIS Male Wasp within a few generations. It happened to the Scotch-Irish, it happened to the Germans, the Irish, the Slavs, the Italians, the Jews, it's happening to Latinos, and Gay folks, and even women it could have been argued. Well not anymore. Not in Trump's America. White CIS Men are an actual thing now that as Trump has shown- have surrendered themselves into a separate bigotry. Bernie's conceit that make sure this coountry takes care of middle class white men and everyone else will quickly catch up and basically become that- is slowly being disproven. The structural realities of racism, sexism, classism, and oppression are simply becoming far too vital to the economic system of capital accumulation. Everyone is fucked- and there are oppressed people in this country who are far more fucked than the white middle class men we've always used as the yard stick.

The better that group does and the more the resources of this country are red-istributed to improve their lot- the greater the income discrepencies, the more ghettoization in our cities an culture as a whole occurs, and the more figurative duct tape is wrapped around the mouths of women and oppressed people while better megaphones are attached to the mouths of white men.

I wish I could get behind Bernie- but I honestly think his vulgur socialism is going to be terrible for this country. We need leadership that fundamentally recognizes the multitudes of experience and oppressions and sees its job as having to end them. Frankly- this country should be like our army. Sexism, Racism, Classism should not be tolerated at any level and we should use all our skills at creating structure and rules to destroy privilege. Frankly this country is worse for white middle class men when they have advantage over everyone else. Our society simply isn't working optimally. You'd never go to war with an army in today's day and age that demanded that 80% of the medals be given to 20% of the soldiers based on some arbitrary thing that should have been thrown away inside the recruitment office.

I've said it before- I like my government but I fear my country and I want a president who is going to prioritize the interests of those among us who have the least voice, the lowest opportunities, face the greatest hurdles, and are more aware of the increasing cracks our system is threatining them with. I don't need my college education subsidized any furhter by the labors of black and brown people and single moms. I already got more than my fair share out of that sketchy deal. Likewise- while I want a public option for health care- because I know that soon no one would pick anything else- I don't need it funded at the expense of any other government program. They just need to enroll anyone who wants to be enrolled in it- in the same healthcare plan we offer to our State Department, Department of Transportation, or Senators or Astronauts.

Anyway- sorry for the ra t.

[e-RICHIE]

Defense contractors have to allow labor unions, <cut>

All industries should have to allow labor unions.

[Mabouya]

As much as I would like to see it happen, I don't think there's any way Bernie beats Trump.

He's just as divisive as HRC, and I doubt he'll get enough minorities out to the polls.

[Corso]

i should really keep these stupid opinions to myself because they're not going to do anything except get me into fights, be misunderstood, and what good is it anyway?

Anyway- sorry for the ra t.

Craig, thank you for the posting, you have nothing to apologize for.

"What good is it anyway?"--I often ask myself. Our exchanges, which often do off the rails and get pointed, overall are (IMO) great at opening eyes to what others are thinking.

[jerk]

All industries should have to allow labor unions.

agreed. and private industry has fought tooth and nail against organized labor since its inception. the only thing that protects the rights of workers to unionize has been the power of government. our republic is not perfect- but folks can organize and agitate and elect leaders who will uphold those hard fought victories. it's funny that we as americans have such a visceral antagonism to "the government". Frankly- it's about the only institution in your life that you have even a shred of control or say in. Most of us don't own the company or appear on the board of the place we work at- we might shop at WalMart or the QuickeeMart but we have zero say over how those entities conduct themselves- we can just decide to consume there or not. Few of us are in leadership positions in our churches or other social groups. But the government? That's you man. Sure money talks and the system is pretty broken- but every right we have, everything good about what we do- wasn't "given" to us by some benevolent leader. it was agitated and fought for through revolution, democratic action, and people working to insure they got what they needed.

If we want all companies that employ more than ten people to be union shops- it's our call. Vote in people who will pass laws to make that happen.

[mzilliox]

agreed. and private industry has fought tooth and nail against organized labor since its inception. the only thing that protects the rights of workers to unionize has been the power of government. our republic is not perfect- but folks can organize and agitate and elect leaders who will uphold those hard fought victories. it's funny that we as americans have such a visceral antagonism to "the government". Frankly- it's about the only institution in your life that you have even a shred of control or say in. Most of us don't own the company or appear on the board of the place we work at- we might shop at WalMart or the QuickeeMart but we have zero say over how those entities conduct themselves- we can just decide to consume there or not. Few of us are in leadership positions in our churches or other social groups. But the government? That's you man. Sure money talks and the system is pretty broken- but every right we have, everything good about what we do- wasn't "given" to us by some benevolent leader. it was agitated and fought for through revolution, democratic action, and people working to insure they got what they needed.

If we want all companies that employ more than ten people to be union shops- it's our call. Vote in people who will pass laws to make that happen.

i was thinking this while pulling weeds today, it may not be perfect, but it beats being governed by private corporations.

[Blue Jays]

@Corso, my thinking (so far) is possibly a Senator Klobuchar/Mayor Buttigieg ticket.
Or perhaps a Mayor Bloomberg/Senator Klobuchar ticket to compete with President Trump/VP Pence.
My anticipation is the incumbent President Trump/VP Pence combination will appeal to more Americans.

[HorsCat]

President Trump/VP Pence combination will appeal to more Americans.

You mean “more electoral college electors.” If it were up to “more Americans,” Trump would still be a reality TV con man and failed-businessman-cum-fake-billionaire.

[Blue Jays]

"...'more electoral college electors'..."

In the prevailing conditions President Trump/VP Pence are likely to earn the most Electoral College votes as well.

[jerk]

In the prevailing conditions President Trump/VP Pence are likely to earn the most Electoral College votes as well.

i hope you are wrong but i fear you are right.

if there is one job in the world that requires a lack of intellectual laziness, humility, selflessness, empathy, and a thick skin- you'd think it'd be the ultimate job of public service- being the President of the United States. I think we could all name some faults and some positives about our current President- but he does not have any of the above traits. He has the ideal traits were the job to be a game show host, or reality tv star- and I guess the job of the President once you remove the actual responsibilities is the ultimate reality tv show and Trump is amazing at that. I guess I just don't see how someone who really only cares about himself is capable of acting in the best interests of this stupid big diverse dumb country of ours. But I guess who is?

[Blue Jays]

"...But I guess who is?.."

Thank you for the thoughtful, courteous, and pleasant post.
That is sometimes missing in this subforum. Thanks again.

In this nation of 300M+ people it is remarkable we can uncover anyone willing to accept the enormous responsibility of being POTUS.

[ericpmoss]

jerk, you're complaining about caricatures of Sanders. It's understandable, because that's all the mainstream media repeats. But it is a caricature, and it's coming from media that gets its money from Wall Street, big pharma, big banks, big weapons makers, big energy, big insurance, and so on.

[lumpy]

My guy, Sherrod Brown is waiting to run against Ivanka in 2024.

Your guy is badly needed in the Senate until further notice. Thank goodness he seems to understand this and didn't throw his hat in the ring this cycle.

[theflashunc]

My anticipation is the incumbent President Trump/VP Pence combination will appeal to more Americans.

I don't see how that happens given the last time around was a popular vote loss of 2.5 million, and the administration has done nothing but narrow their appeal further and further into a base and driven away a lot of suburban women and other so-called swing voters. There'll be fewer Obama/Trump voters this time around than 2016.

While I'll be voting for who I think is the best candidate come Super Tuesday, I'll be supporting whoever comes out of the nomination process in the general with the same enthusiasm and zeal. Stakes are too high to worry about party and ideological purity tests with a wanna-be tin pot autocrat trying to subvert the Constitution every day he's in office. And what any nominee should be fully supporting is an independent commission within the Justice Department to examine crimes committed by those in this administration while they were in office. The deep levels of corruption and graft across a host of departments needs to be ferreted out with a healthy dose of sunshine. If that means folks spend time in jail, so be it. We cannot repeat the primary mistake of the Obama administration and let those who break the law while in positions of power skate free.

[Too Tall]

I can't answer that yet to the OP. What I will say is that nobody has declared a VP and we are only a fraction of the way to what could be a brokered convention. Should THAT happen all bets are off and I'd pick Biden/Abrams.

#leavingformontanasoongonnabeadentalflosstycoon

[thollandpe]

I can't answer that yet to the OP. What I will say is that nobody has declared a VP and we are only a fraction of the way to what could be a brokered convention.

Aye, you don’t win the Tour in the first week. But you can lose it.