Who will challenge Trump? Who you like?

[jclay]

We are simply destined not to agree on too much. My sarcastic reply was based on your linked article that was (IMO) biased. You apparently don't think it was. So there we have it.

I NEVER said racism didn't exist. Not once, not ever. But the thought that it is sole property of one political party (IMO) is absurd.

Jorn wrote this:

And (Bloomberg) underlines the irony of Democrats appearing willing as a party to run without African American support while Trump and the Republican Party appear willing to run with White Supremacist support.

You replied with this:

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

Jorn didn't state or imply a lack of any racists in the dem party. He pointed out that on balance, based on Bloomberg's history which he thumb-nailed earlier, Bloomberg won't likely attract African Americans in the large numbers that will be required for victory. That seems a reasonable prognostication, or do you think Bloomberg's history actually makes him more attractive than the average bear, to African Americans?

Jorn continued by pointing out, obviously based on the Charlottsville (and other) neo-nazi/white supremacist's demonstrations and Trump's subsequent nominalization of their activities on national media, that Trump/Republican Party at large, would rather have the neo-nazi/white supremacist's votes than denounce their behavior. Or maybe they just think that the ideas behind the behavior is OK. Neither is a good thing.

I don't know how you get from that to saying that Jorn accused the ENTIRE RP as being racist; that EVERYBODY in the RP is a racist. He didn't say it and no reasonable, considered evaluation of what he wrote could possibly land in that Zip Code.

As to your rejection of the article I linked: Not much to say; you're rejecting historical fact. Did you never study this stuff in high school or college? Have you never wondered about the evolution of the parties and looked into it?? You're free to reject anything you want; you can reject the basic Newtonian physics that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You'd be categorically wrong but you're free to reject it. You're rejection of the summary of the article is rejection of iron clad, historical, evolutionary fact. You can research it on your own if you're curious. I've been aware of much of the information (not all) in the article for most of my adult life but it is a nicely condensed summary that I stumbled into quite by accident the other day. It is not news.

You also heard from a couple of folks who live in the SE USA; as to me, all of my life. I have a bit of an education in psychology, I'm overly curious and when something catches my attention I'll generally do some homework on it. I'm from a many generations Navy/MC family, generally lived on base or at least in areas largely populated by the families of officers; folks who had travelled extensively, saw lots of different cultures, that sort of thing. But I went to southern public schools and the cultural contrasts were extremely obvious. I grew up with white Southern racists; went to school with them and worked with them. I know them. Many exist and I don't know a one who self identifies as Democratic; to a person they abhor democrats. Now wait a minute....I didn't just say that the DP has none, you never stated that racism doesn't exist in the RP, and nobody stated that it was the sole province of one party, but the preponderance of evidence is crystal clear fact: The RP attracts far more racists (and for convenience, let's define that as people who would not vote for a candidate just because he/she was African American) than the DP. It is folly to think that the RP doesn't have orders of magnitude more of those sorts of people.

You wrote: “I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference”

Really? Given the razor thin margins that have given a key state or two's EC votes to one or the other candidate, really and truly you can't that the numbers are adequate to make a diff????? That's kinda nutz....you're denying logic that's based on sound First Principles; big time.

This is too long for me to proof read and the observant V-Salon'er will already know I'm a lousy proofer anyway, so here it is, un-proofed. You're free to disagree until the cows come home, longer if you want, but you're denying reality and I'm not wrong.

[Blue Jays]

Senator Klobuchar and Mayor Buttigieg really launched on each other at the debate.
Perhaps they both want to be viewed as the ideal "midwestern moderate" choice?
It felt like there was some angry bad blood that had been forming between them.

[jclay]

The debates are a waste of time for anyone who wants a meaningful understanding of policy positions. However they might be intended they end up playing to base human emotions and are more like an after school fight in 7th grade. We tuned in a little after it started. My spouse had had enough at about 30 seconds; I made it about 2 minutes. Worthless.

Wanna know what the candidates think and propose? Go to their websites and read their issue by issue positions.

[zachateseverything]

The debates are a waste of time for anyone who wants a meaningful understanding of policy positions. However they might be intended they end up playing to base human emotions and are more like an after school fight in 7th grade. We tuned in a little after it started. My spouse had had enough at about 30 seconds; I made it about 2 minutes. Worthless.

Wanna know what the candidates think and propose? Go to their websites and read their issue by issue positions.

Yeah, I'm not sure how/why anyone can spend a whole lot of time paying attention to them. Regardless, the policy differences between candidates are small enough vs what we currently have in office that I'm not going to pay too much attention to the primary until after super tuesday.

[monadnocky]

I'm in agreement with the above sentiment. These debates are entertainment, and I can't see for the life of me how they would have any predictive validity for the job of President.

If you were hiring, would you choose the person to get the job via this method? It's really dumb IMO.

[Mark Walberg]

I heard that Trump is going to pardon Lance.

[Matthew Strongin]

I'm in agreement with the above sentiment. These debates are entertainment, and I can't see for the life of me how they would have any predictive validity for the job of President.

If you were hiring, would you choose the person to get the job via this method? It's really dumb IMO.

Yep. I'd much rather listen to detailed explanations of how they plan to turn their policy positions into action and results while considering the political landscape. But instead we get jabs and barbs and sound bites. Makes all the candidates seem a bit petty to me.

[Blue Jays]

"...I heard that Trump is going to pardon Lance..."

President Trump is unlikely to become involved with such matters as there was no true miscarriage of justice.
He is undoubtedly concentrating on policy, being CiC, and preparing for an election (likely) against Senator Sanders.
Since this is a "virtual ride" among cycling friends I see no reason to demand endless links and documentation.

[HorsCat]

@jclay - well said. The only thing I'll add is that the racism you describe isn't endemic only to the south. It is all over the United States. The divide is no longer north - south. It is urban - rural. And unfortunately the political system has been manipulated to give rural, predominantly white areas outsize influence in the process.

[CJones]

The networks really need to be better at moderating these debates. CNN did a terrible job last night. They are un-watchable.

You’ve got candidates who are running for President of the United States yelling over one another while constantly interrupting and raising their hands like school kids.

[Scott G.]

Wanna know what the candidates think and propose? Go to their websites and read their issue by issue positions.

C-span has video of candidate events, speeches etc.
No commercials, No talking heads, except the candidate, as civilized
as political coverage ever gets.

Campaign 22 | Series | C-SPAN.org

[Blue Jays]

Live debates are valuable to see how candidates react under unanticipated and unknown conditions.
I did not know Mayor Bloomberg had so much terrible baggage until Senator Warren apprised us.
It is extremely unlikely Mayor Bloomberg would share those remarkable shortcomings via his website.

[monadnocky]

Live debates are valuable to see how candidates react under unanticipated and unknown conditions.....

I don't see how they do, in the least. In fact, I think they encourage exactly the opposite. Debates are completely scripted for sound bites and gotcha moments. And any president facing such conditions, I would imagine, would consult with advisers or expert others first. I don't want a President who reacts without serious deliberation and consultation.

[Corso]

This is too long for me to proof read and the observant V-Salon'er will already know I'm a lousy proofer anyway, so here it is, un-proofed. You're free to disagree until the cows come home, longer if you want, but you're denying reality and I'm not wrong.

John,
I feel your frustration, as recently I outlined how undocumented folks effect my community, and even though I have spoken directly to the elected officials in charge of the city, schools, transportation, housing, etc---I was challenged by many who don't live in my state, and told I was "wrong" as I didn't not provide "data" only anecdotes...and I know I'm right with what I posted.

So it would be hypocritical of me to blow off your reply and not treat it with respect as I know it's from real feelings you have.

I was told I overreacted to Jorn's posting, and have already replied -agreeing to that. I misinterpreted (in my own head) his meaning.

That said, I don't need a lecture about history and what you know vs what I know. It's not an intelligence pissing match.


And that why I said this earlier: "We are simply destined not to agree on too much."

John, you are NEVER wrong. Even if anyone here has an opinion that doesn't align with yours- not facts, opinions, - they are wrong - and Mr Clay is right.

Can we now move on to the topic of this thread?

[zachateseverything]

John,
I feel your frustration, as recently I outlined how undocumented folks effect my community, and even though I have spoken directly to the elected officials in charge of the city, schools, transportation, housing, etc---I was challenged by many who don't live in my state, and told I was "wrong" as I didn't not provide "data" only anecdotes...and I know I'm right with what I posted.

So it would be hypocritical of me to blow off your reply and not treat it with respect as I know it's from real feelings you have.

I was told I overreacted to Jorn's posting, and have already replied -agreeing to that. I misinterpreted (in my own head) his meaning.

That said, I don't need a lecture about history and what you know vs what I know. It's not an intelligence pissing match.


And that why I said this earlier: "We are simply destined not to agree on too much."

John, you are NEVER wrong. Even if anyone here has an opinion that doesn't align with yours- not facts, opinions, - they are wrong - and Mr Clay is right.

Can we now move on to the topic of this thread?

You aren't going to try to charge me rent are you?

[Corso]

You aren't going to try to charge me rent are you?

No rent, but curious on who you challenge and why. At least I'm consistent.

[mzilliox]

Forget the racism for a moment...how about ageism?

Warren - 70.

Trump - 73

Biden, Bloomberg and Sanders - 78.

On top of this, Sanders just had a heart attack and Trump eats rubbish and is overweight.

70 should be okay, but a 78 year old heart attack victim?

Surely there is someone in the 50-65 age bracket who has the chops to do the job?

if Mayor Pete were this age the contest would probably be over now. instead we have old farts and a 30 something?
why discuss the rest of it? any name i put here is better than trump for the country, i think all of our chats have determined that.
I mean we all seem to like services and help for those less fortunate, and i assume you all like clean water and pretty places to ride, so the choice isnt hard is it?

[ides1056]

I watched the debate last night because I am staying at a friend's house which has television.

Not one candidate suggested cutting the defense budget, which is the biggest part of the pie. Instead they fight over the scraps.

It was painful to watch, so I dropped down one channel and there was Hannity giving a voice-over to a Trump rally, which was more like a Potemkin rally when seen from the back.

Chris Cuomo had a juror from the Stone trial on and he spoke eloquently about the deliberations in the context of this political moment.

After the circular firing squad there was Brian Williams leading a panel discussion. Huh? Why does he still have a job?

Bernie won.

[lumpy]

if mayor pete was this age the contest would probably be over

He'd have had to have gotten a little more experience under his belt in the meantime.

[theflashunc]

I don't see how they do, in the least. In fact, I think they encourage exactly the opposite. Debates are completely scripted for sound bites and gotcha moments. And any president facing such conditions, I would imagine, would consult with advisers or expert others first. I don't want a President who reacts without serious deliberation and consultation.

So if the debates are just doing your homework and showing up prepared with all of the above, Bloomberg and his expensive advisers failed completely. He and his people had to know he was stepping into the lion's den wearing a steak suit, and none of what anyone brought up was unexpected or out of left field, and he looked completely out of his depth.

I laud your criteria, but if that judgment of success also doesn't weigh someone who shows up at least nominally prepared for the haymakers that are coming their way, then that person also would seem woefully unqualified to be President.