Who will challenge Trump? Who you like?

[thollandpe]

Personally I think too much emphasis is placed on the quixotic notion of electability, but here’s making the case that Pete is more electable than Bernie, and also has his progressive bona fides.

Pete Buttigieg is more electable than Bernie Sanders, and more progressive than you think - Dylan Matthews

[theflashunc]

Pete's problem is his single digit polling with African Americans. Unless that substantially changes in the next three weeks, he's not the nominee. Or if he is the nominee and can't get African Americans out to vote, he ain't winning.

[j44ke]

Pete's problem is his single digit polling with African Americans. Unless that substantially changes in the next three weeks, he's not the nominee. Or if he is the nominee and can't get African Americans out to vote, he ain't winning.

Super Tuesday will be interesting.

[Corso]

...while Trump and the Republican Party appear willing to run with White Supremacist support.

It’s almost like the politics of The Reconstruction risen from the grave.

May you live in interesting times....

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

I was watching Major Pete tonight at his CNN love-a-thon. I'm trying to keep an open mind about all of this. He's saying all the right things, but not explaining on how teachers raises, his various "corps", etc etc will actually be funded. And he seemed to be pandering a bit too much toward the black vote.He threw out "Trump-racist" a few times for good measure. Pete must have read your post.

A bit off topic, but it always rubbed me the wrong way, that during an election, it's common to segregate voters: the Black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Women's vote, etc etc. It just sound odd, and It corals "types" of people into nothing but sheep.

I never liked it, and still don't. I give people of all "groups" more credit than voting by which bucket politicians want to put then in.

[Mabouya]

Social Democrat perhaps yes. "Socialist" in all caps, I doubt it

Agreed, but that's a distinction that will be lost in the noise of a presidential election, and certainly in this country (unlike Europe) where there is little history of Social Democratic party, unless you want to go back to Eugene V. Debs around 1900.

Besides, over the years in the US the Social Democrats have morphed back and forth from that to plain old Socialists and back again several times, always remaining a fringe (but noisy) party.

We'll see if Bernie can improve on that, but I very much doubt that the GOP will allow the leopard to change its spots so easily.

[theflashunc]

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

I was watching Major Pete tonight at his CNN love-a-thon. I'm trying to keep an open mind about all of this. He's saying all the right things, but not explaining on how teachers raises, his various "corps", etc etc will actually be funded. And he seemed to be pandering a bit too much toward the black vote.He threw out "Trump-racist" a few times for good measure. Pete must have read your post.

A bit off topic, but it always rubbed me the wrong way, that during an election, it's common to segregate voters: the Black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Women's vote, etc etc. It just sound odd, and It corals "types" of people into nothing but sheep.

I never liked it, and still don't. I give people of all "groups" more credit than voting by which bucket politicians want to put then in.

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ. Lee Atwater. Every Republican President since Nixon.

Yes, white supremacy is pretty core to the party.

[Mabouya]

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ. Lee Atwater. Every Republican President since Nixon.

Yes, white supremacy is pretty core to the party.

Who could forget Willie Horton?

But when guys like Michael Milken, Bernie Kerik, Eddie DeBartolo Jr., and Rod Blagojevich commit crimes, well, that's a completely different matter...

[jclay]

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

I never liked it, and still don't. I give people of all "groups" more credit than voting by which bucket politicians want to put then in.

1) Southern racist are alive and well in the SE USA. You seem to require some sort of outside “authority” for confirmation. Can't help you with that other than to say that if you research a bit you should be able to grok the situation. What do you think Confederate flags mean?? “Heritage Not Hate”?? Hogwash. As I said, I hardly go a day without seeing one and I can easily take you to several large private monuments proudly flying the stars and bars. Sure, the folks I dealt with behaved decently when in racially mixed company, you generally have to these days. "Corporate HR" and getting the job done demand it; the codified, institutional barriers are pretty much gone. Most seem OK, racially, but there is clearly a significant subset that when in white only company let their social filters relax and start saying the ugly things that are contained within; they are racists and not in insignificant numbers. So, I guess I am an authority. I'm your personal, white, double naught spy in the world of Southern racism.

2) Meaningful impact? Christ yes. It's everywhere. Through work I've interacted and been in contact with lots of rural white folks who work in construction or at chemical process plants. It's endemic, cultural, baked in. To any rational, observant individual who's traveled or otherwise aware of cultural differences, has lived here and hasn't stayed in a university bubble it's as obvious as a large wart on the nose.

3) People put themselves in various “buckets”. Cagey people recognize and utilize that; some leverage it naturally perhaps. It's an obvious and daily occurrence.

4) I don't think Jorn was accusing the ENTIRE Republican Party but it's established history that the Democratic Party ceased to be the lifeboat of Southern white racists and that they moved to a changed Republican Party. Today's Republican Party is not the party of Abraham Lincoln. This summarizes it well:

How the Republican Party Became The Party of Racism

[jclay]

“Targeted slam at the President”

I'll take that to mean gratuitous slams, undeserved slams, that sort of thing.

What would it take for you (meaning current Trump supporters) to think that the prez deserves to be slammed, impeached, removed, prosecuted?

We've been swimming in his very serious transgressions and destructive behavior, for which there are mountains of irrefutable evidence, for over three years.

His previous history is common knowledge and well documented. We KNOW how this man operates. It's not difficult or abstract.

What would be required for you (meaning current Trump supporters) to unequivocally denounce Trump as wholly unfit to be president?? It's a serious, earnest question.

Either I am one certifiably, crazy-ass dumb fuck who has absolutely no clue what is real and what is not, who needs to be institutionalized for my own protection, or Trump is everything he's accused of being. While self analyses are notoriously inaccurate, I don't think I'm that wacked out; I don't claim to be a Stable Genius but I think I'm pretty well grounded in reality and I will acknowledge (sometimes slowly, begrudgingly) what I see in the mirror (so again, sorry I have been an ass a time or three).

Now, I'm not talking about why peeps voted for him in 2016 and my scree doesn't mean that he hasn't pointed out, correctly, a few problem areas, or that the dems have “got everything right” (which should be fairly apparent from many previous posts) and don't have some members who ought to be booted or jailed. But jeepers, Trump is off the charts when it comes to this stuff, and the avalanche of evidence is a slam-effing-dunk. It's not lying about blow jobs, it's not about being born in Africa, it's not Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi, it's real, and real damaging stuff. How a third of our voting population can, at this point, deny what is now in PLAIN sight is unfathomable to me. Well, from an academic psychological perspective it is not unfathomable to me at all, it's actually quite simple, basic even, but it is infuriating, worrisome and a bona fide danger to our country.

As an aside: For quite a few years now I have posited that this country will address it's serious fundamental problems only when, metaphorically, the car is in the ditch, upside down, on fire and the survivors are limping down the shoulder. If any good comes of Trump it will be, I think and hope, that we will be forced or more willing to acknowledge and address at least some of those issues. We're going to have to replace a lot of broken china but hopefully we will improve from this disconcerting detour.

[defspace]

1) Southern racist are alive and well in the SE USA. You seem to require some sort of outside “authority” for confirmation. Can't help you with that other than to say that if you research a bit you should be able to grok the situation. What do you think Confederate flags mean?? “Heritage Not Hate”?? Hogwash.

Texan here, chiming in to confirm. Similar experiences all around. It doesn't take much of a drive (because we have no meaningful mass transit) to get out into the suburbs to hear this stuff. You don't even need to go into rural areas.

Funny about that "it's history stuff." TX was a member of the Confederacy for four years - 1861-1965. Texas was also a Spanish colony for almost 300 years (1519 - 1685 and 1690 - 1821). Guess how many Confederate flags I see on a regular basis. Now guess how many Spanish flags I see on a regular basis.

[Blue Jays]

There will be sparks flying whether the front runner to be the Democrat candidate is Senator Sanders or Mayor Bloomberg.
Second tier at this point are Mayor Buttigieg and Senator Klobuchar. VP Biden and Senator Warren campaigns are swirling fast.
All the other candidates seeking the Democrat nomination are basically "pack fodder" to put it into bicycle racing parlance.

[Octave]

What would be required for you (meaning current Trump supporters) to unequivocally denounce Trump as wholly unfit to be president?? It's a serious, earnest question.

+1. I would LOVE to see an answer to this question. Every time I think we've reached that threshold, his polling fails to budge. Every scandal, every outright lie, absolute abuse of power and corruption of justice, move towards undeniable authoritarianism...etc. and his supporters in general seem unphased.

[Corso]

I don't think Jorn was accusing the ENTIRE Republican Party but it's established history that the Democratic Party ceased to be the lifeboat of Southern white racists and that they moved to a changed Republican Party. Today's Republican Party is not the party of Abraham Lincoln. This summarizes it well:

How the Republican Party Became The Party of Racism

Interesting non-biased article right there.

Jorn, I owe you an apology. I didn't realize I was a racist -by-association-by-belonging-to-the-Republican-Party. Guess I'm a half-white supremacist (since I'm half white) too.

But If I change to the Democratic Party, all is forgiven, and magically I'm a racist no more!

That's all I'm saying on that.

And can you folks simply FOCUS on what this thread is all about? Trumps challengers.

This is not a TRUMP is the devil thread, and "how can anyone vote for him" topic. We have about 59 of those already.

Or start a new thread.

[Blue Jays]

"...And can you folks simply FOCUS on what this thread is all about? Trump's challengers..."

@Corso, that is precisely where I have focused on this thread.
Curious what hardcore Senator Sanders / hardcore Senator Warren supporters will do if Mayor Bloomberg ultimately gets the nod.
My sense is those aligned with Mayor Buttigieg, Senator Klobuchar, Tom Steyer, and others are more neutral about Wall Street money.

[gregl]

+1. I would LOVE to see an answer to this question. Every time I think we've reached that threshold, his polling fails to budge. Every scandal, every outright lie, absolute abuse of power and corruption of justice, move towards undeniable authoritarianism...etc. and his supporters in general seem unphased.

Your answer lies in Germany in the 1930s. Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. I fear for the future of my country.

Greg

[j44ke]

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

I was watching Major Pete tonight at his CNN love-a-thon. I'm trying to keep an open mind about all of this. He's saying all the right things, but not explaining on how teachers raises, his various "corps", etc etc will actually be funded. And he seemed to be pandering a bit too much toward the black vote.He threw out "Trump-racist" a few times for good measure. Pete must have read your post.

A bit off topic, but it always rubbed me the wrong way, that during an election, it's common to segregate voters: the Black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Women's vote, etc etc. It just sound odd, and It corals "types" of people into nothing but sheep.

I never liked it, and still don't. I give people of all "groups" more credit than voting by which bucket politicians want to put then in.

Corso, you are seriously over-reacting exactly the same way you have accused others here of overreacting against things you've said.

But I really don't have time to deal with this and shouldn't have participated in this thread. I swore I would avoid all political threads on this forum, but somehow I just got suckered into the conversation once more. I find them entirely subtractive from the overall experience of this site, I find most of the comments to border on hysterical and are often personally accusatory, and I think they do nothing to add to the collegiality of the content here. In fact, I think they create a tremendous amount of negative energy and animosity among people who might otherwise find more in common than different.

[davids]

Just how many White Supremacist are there and how many actually vote? What is the percentage of "registered White Supremacist" in the country? Do you have any proof that this block can make a meaningful impact, or is this simply another targeted slam at the President? I'm not saying it does not exist, but I can't believe the numbers are high enough (beside sounding like good PR for the left) to make a difference. Are there really no White Supremacist in any other party than the GOP?

You accuse the ENTIRE Republican Party of this? Really Jorn? I'm surprised to hear this kind of accusation from you.

I was watching Major Pete tonight at his CNN love-a-thon. I'm trying to keep an open mind about all of this. He's saying all the right things, but not explaining on how teachers raises, his various "corps", etc etc will actually be funded. And he seemed to be pandering a bit too much toward the black vote.He threw out "Trump-racist" a few times for good measure. Pete must have read your post.

A bit off topic, but it always rubbed me the wrong way, that during an election, it's common to segregate voters: the Black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Women's vote, etc etc. It just sound odd, and It corals "types" of people into nothing but sheep.

I never liked it, and still don't. I give people of all "groups" more credit than voting by which bucket politicians want to put then in.

Corso,

This is a serious misreading of what Jorn wrote. There is a big and clear difference between being "willing to run with White Supremacist support" and accusing the entire Republican Party of being White Supremacists.

If you need evidence of Republicans being willing to align themselves with White Supremacists we can provide copious examples. Indeed a handful of excellent illustrations have already been offered.

In the meantime your post alienated an interesting, substantive participant here. Take a breath before your next post and let's keep the conversation fair and balanced (yes that was intentional.)

[davids]

Curious what hardcore Senator Sanders / hardcore Senator Warren supporters will do if Mayor Bloomberg ultimately gets the nod.
My sense is those aligned with Mayor Buttigieg, Senator Klobuchar, Tom Steyer, and others are more neutral about Wall Street money.

This Warren supporter will vote for whoever is running against Trump.

[Blue Jays]

The focus will be very much on Senator Sanders and Mayor Bloomberg for tonight.
Another big surprise could be a remarkable comeback by VP Biden in South Carolina.

[theflashunc]

This Warren supporter will vote for whoever is running against Trump.

Same. And campaign for that person with the same vigor as I do Liz. Primaries are times to vote with your heart, general is time to vote with your head.