If you want to dump Trump....

[jclay]

then read this article. I don't like what it says and fundamentally I'm with Bernie but this guy makes a strong case for why his ideas and a bona fide progressive movement will have to wait. Getting rid of Trump trumps everything else and, sadly, I believe the author.

How to dump Trump: Rick Wilson on Running Against the Devil | US news | The Guardian

[Too Tall]

It is infuriating to me that he makes a living by making a game out of wrecking politics AND delights in the outcome.

Take all that saavy and accumen than actually package it into something resembling a human being? Nah that's not going to happen.

It's like saying Kelley Anne Conway was just playing along to make sure things didn't get too bad.

Why can't this man work THAT hard to prevent voting suppression...for instance. Nah, he deserves none of our attention but I'm glad you gave me the link.

He closes with this : “And this time I am putting my ideological priors and my preferences aside, because I think that Donald Trump is an existential threat to the Republic. I’ll do anything I can to help ensure that he is not president for another four years.”

(Cough) I'm very skeptical this isn't just another payday for him.

[guido]

The GOP has very effectively effectively blindered large swaths of the population to believe that position on automatic weapons and a womans right to choose what happens to their bodies is more important than preventing folks from asset stripping the country (the world...) while putting a brick on the accelerator and driving us full speed towards the climate apocalypse.

[jclay]

It is infuriating to me that he makes a living by making a game out of wrecking politics AND delights in the outcome.

Take all that saavy and accumen than actually package it into something resembling a human being? Nah that's not going to happen.

It's like saying Kelley Anne Conway was just playing along to make sure things didn't get too bad.

Why can't this man work THAT hard to prevent voting suppression...for instance. Nah, he deserves none of our attention but I'm glad you gave me the link.

He closes with this : “And this time I am putting my ideological priors and my preferences aside, because I think that Donald Trump is an existential threat to the Republic. I’ll do anything I can to help ensure that he is not president for another four years.”

(Cough) I'm very skeptical this isn't just another payday for him.

The GOP has very effectively effectively blindered large swaths of the population to believe that position on automatic weapons and a womans right to choose what happens to their bodies is more important than preventing folks from asset stripping the country (the world...) while putting a brick on the accelerator and driving us full speed towards the climate apocalypse.

^^^Yes to all of that.

It is astonishing and sickening that people can approach something as serious as party affiliation and policy with about as much critical thought as supporting your high school football team.

I was reading responses to some of Marco Rubio's missives pertaining to the Iran debacle, the shoot-down and such as that, on his FB page. It's revolting; so were his missives. A large percentage of humanity is really, really stupid, blind and vile. I am beyond disgusted, right down to a molecular level.

[mzilliox]

Warning, long winded and mostly senseless rant, i know, shocking from me, right? but like Jclay, im beyond disgusted to a molecular level, the current complete disregard for truth, facts, and common decency is shocking to me. and im just as shocked how many normal humans are willing to repeat the obvious bullshit they hear on either side, but right now mainly bullshit comes from the president and his team. that people would find adam shiff to be more of a liar than donald trump is just them willfully ignoring more reality.

Its bizarre how both sides feel like the other side is over the top with their lies and noise when the reality is one side has so much more (need) to gain from lies and filthy politics. People are voting on complete nonsense, like "not hillary" or "dont take my guns", and not considering long term implications of any decisions, or how it affects all Americans. Half the people (or maybe more like 30-40%) are not at all interested in policy, as evidenced by our Trump talks in here. things like not hillary, or socialist, or "modern progressive thought" are lofted up as ideals? thats what they have to talk about, not who they are, but who they are not. so proud. so great

Its interesting how people claim to vote for their own interests, but when you ask them about those interests, they dont actually know what their interests are (or maybe they do, but aren't willing to share them for some reason? embarrassment? racist? sexist? ), but as you get to know them, point out what you see as some of their common interests, then inform them that perhaps their interests would be best served by somebody other than Trump, all bets off, right back to high school football chants, lock her up, send her back, lots of anti "her" sentiment too. interesting there eh?

Its interesting when you try to speak about actual issues we all face, or the concept of governance to help a majority, and folks get all deflective, like we dont actually want to face the reality of climate change, our worsening education, and our inefficient health care system, or machines making work irrelevant in the next 100yrs. lock her up, send her back, the market, etc etc. they'd rather argue about easy win points like abortion, guns, character, economy, identity, selfish things, boring things, base things. why are we not talking about the big things? the forward things? the bigger picture, the future and shit?

Its odd that people repeat things they know to be false, and dont see anything wrong with it as long as it gets them where they think they want to be. Its odd how common its becoming to completely ignore facts and information and arguments, philosophies, theories, then just make something up, or take something somebody else made up, and then go with that instead and say well this is my opinion so there. its especially weird when the topic is facts and not opinions.

On to the article, this guy is obviously not a good human with well meaning intentions. he sort of admits it. Its shocking to me that people will read this and then go back to some other positive thought in their head about trump, then call this guy a name or pretend hes just been burned by trump or something, dismiss the implications of what he is saying, and beat their chest if/when Trump wins. they will not consider the words of people in here who used to vote republican but cannot support such a tiny human being. or even this guy, whos an admitted asshole but still thinks trump is such a bigger asshole that he's unfit to govern. why do we not listen more to these types of voices? why are the voices from ones own "team" ignored even more than those from the other side? why does nobody listen to the voices from inside the admin that are screaming for help?

I guess at the end of the day, i wonder how so much can be willfully ignored by so many, and that is exactly what this article seems to say.

we the voters will willfully ignore what we know to be true or best, based on identity, based on anger, based on resentment, and vote for a sub human who has no interest in making any one of our lives better, and would in fact work to make all of our lives worse if it means his would be better.

The implications of what he says are shocking to my naive self, and not at all surprising to my new politically aware self. He implies in this article that it basically requires dirty tactics, lies, deceit, and a lack of democracy to get somebody like Trump elected. He implies that character is actually a bad thing to have as a presidential candidate now, because voters are stupid and dont care about character. He implies having a plan for America is actually not what Americans want to hear. They would rather be fed bad promises and lies, and vote on those emotions, rtaher than be presented with something that might help them and their neighbors in the long run.

hes basically saying what i have been thinking but have been too hesitant to believe. The American voter is stupid and uneducated, more than ever before, so take advantage of that.
“You’ve got to run where the game is played and fight where the fight is, which is these 15 electoral college swing states, and those states are not as woke and liberal as other parts of the country.”

This just doesn't read like democracy. it reads like a high school popularity contest, which is pretty much what society has become i suppose.

Demockery is what this looks like, not democracy. we are owned, not free. we have become consumers, not citizens. we get what we pay for.

[colker]

I could say it makes me vomit but ... isn´t it illegal to make the whole thing just a hysterical realityTV show? You must have a program and rule by the program if elected. At least that´s how it is here. That marketeer guy is a crook and believes Fraud is the new normal. We could all vomit.. but again: it´s the kind of plan that´s borderline criminal. Someone should take guys like these to court. One of these marketeers got very rich w/ those tactics here but ended up in jail on money laundering accusations. Good thing democrats decided to stay on course and do what they are supposed to do: democracy.

[choke]

People are voting on complete nonsense, like "not hillary" or "dont take my guns", and not considering long term implications of any decisions, or how it affects all Americans.

To you their view may be nonsense but to those who hold those views they are not. And that is all that matters.

Its interesting how people claim to vote for their own interests, but when you ask them about those interests, they dont actually know what their interests are (or maybe they do, but aren't willing to share them for some reason? embarrassment? racist? sexist? ), but as you get to know them, point out what you see as some of their common interests, then inform them that perhaps their interests would be best served by somebody other than Trump, all bets off, right back to high school football chants, lock her up, send her back, lots of anti "her" sentiment too. interesting there eh?

I think it's interesting when people seem to think that they know my interests better than I do.

The implications of what he says are shocking to my naive self, and not at all surprising to my new politically aware self. He implies in this article that it basically requires dirty tactics, lies, deceit, and a lack of democracy to get somebody like Trump elected. He implies that character is actually a bad thing to have as a presidential candidate now, because voters are stupid and dont care about character. He implies having a plan for America is actually not what Americans want to hear. They would rather be fed bad promises and lies, and vote on those emotions, rtaher than be presented with something that might help them and their neighbors in the long run.

That has been politics for many many years....and not just in the US. "If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner." - H.L. Mencken

[choke]

Good thing democrats decided to stay on course and do what they are supposed to do: democracy.

That may be the most hilarious thing I have read on this forum.

[colker]

That has been politics for many many years....and not just in the US. "If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner." - H.L. Mencken

Politics is letting everybody have a small part of what they want but not everything they want. It is the exercise of tolerance and coexistence.

Lying, deceiving, bribing, creating unnecessary anger and conflict is the opposite of politics.

[Too Tall]

Just wanted to say I'm grateful to Matt for sharing his words.

[jclay]

Politics is letting everybody have a small part of what they want but not everything they want.

That's what democracy is, too. Clearly McConnell & his ilk do not support democracy or else they wouldn't have elevated obstruction to a high art.

[Ras72]

Thank you Matt. I couldn’t agree more.

[Corso]

Matt, it's painfully obvious on which direction you lean, but honestly, if someone has a view you don't "see", you decide that they are "sexist, racist, stupid or uneducated?

You don't understand why anyone supports Trump, so stop there.

Don't try to understand or make sense of it, as you don't seem to have the ability to see the other side's point of view, or rather, accept the fact that someone - say with even a higher intellect or education that you, may not agree with you? And I'm not saying that person is me, I'm just throwing it out there. Certainly someone who voted for Trump might have an higher IQ than you, or are they all simply idiots?

I don't feel the need to justify who or why I vote for. It's my business, and I certainly do not intend to be judged by one who has no respect for the freedom of choice.

Again, I am not a fervent Trump supporter, and agree he has many, many faults. I respect your opinion and the time you spend here stating it, but sometimes your tone... you have the right to vote for whoever floats your boat. But don't belittle those who exercise their right to vote for whoever they choose.

And I've yet to see a clear and better option for the next election. You may not like reading that, but so be it. There's still time to sway me.

As far as the article linked: I hope no one buys his book and puts any $ in his bank account. He's and others like him part of the problem with our political system. IMO.

[mzilliox]

Thank you guys for the support, because some days i feel crazy.

And thank you Choke, because you are right, for each individual, whatever they feel is important is all that matters (to them), thats very true, one man's existential crises can be fake to another. and ones mans fear of losing something, or fear in general, can be quite the overpowering emotion. and we all put different probabilities and importance levels on our fears and desires. sometimes its hard to understand why some people dont prioritize the things you do. in all of my efforts to engage, i do however try and be genuine about my desire to at least understand the other side when they happen to actually provide some sort of reasons for their positions.

But to the last point about cannibals...
the article here specifically says the democrats didn't win the last election and may not win this one because they were not willing to play the game to the same nasty degree, that's was part of the point of the article, and id agree. but of course, thats just politics, sometimes the lesser evil wins, sometimes not. we all get to decide which one to pick, the liars or the bullshitters. i hope democracy involves considering ALL of your neighbors when you consider policy, i hope.

[mzilliox]

Matt, it's painfully obvious on which direction you lean, but honestly, if someone has a view you don't "see", you decide that they are "sexist, racist, stupid or uneducated?

You don't understand why anyone supports Trump, so stop there.

Don't try to understand or make sense of it, as you don't seem to have the ability to see the other side's point of view, or rather, accept the fact that someone - say with even a higher intellect or education that you, may not agree with you? And I'm not saying that person is me, I'm just throwing it out there. Certainly someone who voted for Trump might have an higher IQ than you, or are they all simply idiots?

I don't feel the need to justify who or why I vote for. It's my business, and I certainly do not intend to be judged by one who has no respect for the freedom of choice.

Again, I am not a fervent Trump supporter, and agree he has many, many faults. I respect your opinion and the time you spend here stating it, but sometimes your tone... you have the right to vote for whoever floats your boat. But don't belittle those who exercise their right to vote for whoever they choose.

And I've yet to see a clear and better option for the next election. You may not like reading that, but so be it. There's still time to sway me.

As far as the article linked: I hope no one buys his book and puts any $ in his bank account. He's and others like him part of the problem with our political system. IMO.

Corso, i get it, i know why you don't like what i say, im a bit of an asshole when im speaking passionately about politics. But realize im not just talking about the poeple who respond here, but all voters, myself included, with many of my comments. i live in a place where people do vote for Trump, so im not just interacting with you, really, its not about you at all.
but its not fair to say i dont listen, as i do respond to things specifically. I'm not saying anyone who doesn't agree with me are these things, ever. i dont know anything about any one of you. i only stated that when people don't share their why, it requires me to wonder why. thats all. and when you assume, well... im guilty of making an ass of myself the same as anyone.
I dont need people to be smarter than me to change my mind, i need them to offer convincing support of their opinion or position, thats all. lots of people are way smarter than me, lots of people on this forum are way smarter than me, and way more educated, the smartest of us stay away from these threads.. wink wink. its not about me at all, its about the ideas, the philosophies.
You go on here to say you dont have to justify why you vote a certain way, and thats true, you dont at all, but then why come here and respond contrarily to people who are justifying the way they vote with their opinions and articles and evidence. thats sort of the point of these talks...at least for me, to get to understand why people have viewpoints, not to just hear them.

so in summary, im really not as interested in which side people support, im interested in WHY people support the side they do, does that make sense?

and we DO AGREE on the fact that this guy is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
where im not sure if we'd agree but maybe is this: its a reason not to support trump. this article is about how Trump used and will be using guys like himself and strategies like this to win. thats another strike against for me.

but this is a dump trump thread... and its hard for people who want to dump trump to understand

[BBB]

The role of mis-information, particularly given a form of political marketing that thrives on division, is a real problem.

Only last week (and discussed in a separate thread) we saw how easy it was (and how easy it was gobbled up) for mis-information to be spread about arson being at the centre of the Australian bushfires. This was seemingly done to counter the anger the fires generated over climate change and in particular, the current Federal Government's terrible track record on the issue. This so-called #arson emergency resulted in time wasting clarifications - in one case the figures quoted were for the 12 months ending in September 2019 and did not cover the current round of fires - and were not at all helpful in an emergency situation.

Translate this experience across a long winded multi-billion dollar winner takes all spend-a-thon that is a US election, then the spread of mis-information and the undermining of the democratic process should be a big concern. Combine this with a President who seemingly cannot lie straight in bed and you have a real problem.

[deano]

Sympathetically looking at historical contingencies and a clear-eyed look at social change over time might show a lot about why someone would or wouldn't vote for Trump. It's not that mystifying. I shouldn't be typing at 12:30AM but take a little Horatio Alger rags to riches mythology, a mesmerizing postwar theology that was too optimistic about the human condition, add in the rise of Evangelicals and the Moral Majority syncing up with Reaganism after Carter's disappointing term, reduce over low heat with robots taking people's jobs and Liberalism kinda failing at a lot of things, socially and economically, then bake it against the backdrop of a Machiavellian strong man promising to restore what's been lost in regions that have objectively been left behind economically speaking, then throw in the critical element: American apocalypticism (American literature, and, I suspect, political economy has always been about the Apocalypse, since its promise of Revolution as turning point in history finally freeing the dignity of man from both scepter and crozier, to the ominous war between the States - "mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord") ... and voila you get Tronald.

Look, I'm not wild about Tronald D., to say the least, but sh** happens, and that's where history took us. I get wanting to get him out of office, etc. but all this talk about "How could anyone ...?" and "I'm incensed at my fellow man down to the rhyzomes in my mitochondria" is a bit overwrought, no? I spelled out one way to look at the recipe for Trump - it's not all pure ideology and reasoned judgments and it turns out reasoned judgments take people otherwise at a relative parity of reasonableness or unreasonableness to starkly different conclusions. People can't think apart from their own minds. Sympathy is probably the bridge to understanding the choices other people make.

[guido]

It is curious how the very folks who have been hurt the most by the policies and practices of the GOP are it's most ardent supporters.

[AngryScientist]

This article was posted elsewhere and got me thinking....

Interesting tie in to the trump voters within.

Opinion | Who Killed the Knapp Family? - The New York Times

[gregl]

This article was posted elsewhere and got me thinking....

Interesting tie in to the trump voters within.

Opinion | Who Killed the Knapp Family? - The New York Times

Thank you for posting the link. A powerful story and very relevant to our discussions here.

Greg