Soundproofing a Heating Pipe (Noisy Neighbors)

[johnmdesigner]

I live in an old NYC concrete apartment with an exposed 4" riser heat pipe (the kind that moves when the heat is turned on).
I also have vampire neighbors downstairs who start their day at midnight.
Any suggestions on how I might dampen the sound traveling up this pipe? I have seen acoustical tape that can be wrapped around a pipe but it is expensive and I suspect it will do nothing about the gaps in the floor that must be kept open in order for the pipe to move up and down.
I imagine I will have to wall the area off. Any suggestions on what material I should use that will resist heat and dampen the noise?
Any suggestions or advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John

[bigbill]

Would muffler tape work for you? You can wrap the pipe and not worry about heat, perhaps thicker layers around the wall penetration.

Robot Check

[thollandpe]

You can insulate the pipe, and cover or fill the gap, without constraining the pipe's ability to expand and contract. Think of an overlap detail, where one piece is anchored to the floor and the other is attached to the pipe.

Most any thermal insulation material is going to do a decent job with noise. This stuff is phenomenal, just check the temperature limits before you put it in contact with a steam pipe. If it's not rated for 212F then you could use it as a jacket over fiberglass pipe insulation. Acoustiblok Soundproofing Material - Acoustiblok Website

Condo Townhouse Noise - Acoustiblok Website

But like you say, building a walled chase around the pipe, and insulating the cavity with rock wool, will be as soundproof as you can get.

[j44ke]

Just to clarify - the noise you are trying to deal with are voices or music from your neighbors, not steam or water knock noises from the pipes, right?

First, NYC has pretty clear rules about noise after hours, and all of them put the responsibility for noise reduction on your neighbors. You should be able to require they reduce their noise level from their side by either being quiet, changing the location of their night time activities to another part of their apartment or boxing in their portion of the steam pipe in their apartment. If you are an owner, this happens through the building’s board or management company and if you are a renter this happens through the landlord.

You can apply leverage with a 311 report and visit from the city investigators. Once you file a noise complaint, they will visit and make a determination on responsibility for the solution. Then the responsible party will be required to effect the solution.

But if you want to box in the pipe, that’s usually something you can request from a landlord. There is no fire threat from a steam pipe that I know of, but to minimize expansion and contraction of materials, I’d create a vertical box that gives the pipe 2-4” of clearance, depending on the heat from the pipe. Additionally you can create a vent towards the top of the box, covered with radiator screening, to allow heat to expand/escape. You can line the inside of the box with yellow fiberglass pipe insulation - the kind that usually has a reflective foil on one side - to perhaps control sound as well as prevent heat damage to the box over time. You can use that insulation to pack the bottom of the box as well to keep noise from coming up through the space around the pipe.

Remember that you will lose some radiant heat from that pipe if you box it in, so if you don’t have a radiator in the room, the temps will be lower in the room after you box the pipe in. The vent will help a bit and by putting it higher on the box reduce the amount of noise that reaches you.

[johnmdesigner]

Just to clarify - the noise you are trying to deal with are voices or music from your neighbors, not steam or water knock noises from the pipes, right?

First, NYC has pretty clear rules about noise after hours, and all of them put the responsibility for noise reduction on your neighbors. You should be able to require they reduce their noise level from their side by either being quiet, changing the location of their night time activities to another part of their apartment or boxing in their portion of the steam pipe in their apartment. If you are an owner, this happens through the building’s board or management company and if you are a renter this happens through the landlord.

You can apply leverage with a 311 report and visit from the city investigators. Once you file a noise complaint, they will visit and make a determination on responsibility for the solution. Then the responsible party will be required to effect the solution.

But if you want to box in the pipe, that’s usually something you can request from a landlord. There is no fire threat from a steam pipe that I know of, but to minimize expansion and contraction of materials, I’d create a vertical box that gives the pipe 2-4” of clearance, depending on the heat from the pipe. Additionally you can create a vent towards the top of the box, covered with radiator screening, to allow heat to expand/escape. You can line the inside of the box with yellow fiberglass pipe insulation - the kind that usually has a reflective foil on one side - to perhaps control sound as well as prevent heat damage to the box over time. You can use that insulation to pack the bottom of the box as well to keep noise from coming up through the space around the pipe.

Remember that you will lose some radiant heat from that pipe if you box it in, so if you don’t have a radiator in the room, the temps will be lower in the room after you box the pipe in. The vent will help a bit and by putting it higher on the box reduce the amount of noise that reaches you.

That is correct. A psycho mother and her middle aged son who's never worked a day in his life.

[j44ke]

Aha - so you are building a box then. :-)

[johnmdesigner]

Aha - so you are building a box then. :-)

My coop board is a bunch of useless idiots and I can't imagine 311 coming to do an inspection at 3am.
So yes, I guess it's the box.

[j44ke]

Sent you a contractor recommendation by pm.

[Bob Ross]

Two basic rules of soundproofing:

- the only things that can successfully abate sound transmission are A) air space, and/or B) mass

- regardless of whether you choose air space, mass, or some combination thereof to abate sound transmission, if there are any gaps in the barrier you construct that allow air to pass between the two sides, the entire structure is compromised.

So yeah, building a box around that pipe would be a better solution than wrapping the pipe in insulation, but that box needs to be sealed, essentially airtight, it has to be large enough to allow a significant volume of internal space around the pipe (that's the air space) and it has to be constructed of multiple dense and preferably non-similar layers of heavy material (that's the mass).

It's doable (in my day job we design these structures fairly often) but it isn't cheap, it isn't easy...and it's way too easy to try to take a shortcut and wind up wasting all your time because the structure doesn't work effectively.

E.g., if it turns out there's also a small gap in the floor joists somewhere else in the room that also allows sound to pass up from your neighbor's apartment, the pipe-containing-box is pointless.

[johnmdesigner]

Two basic rules of soundproofing:

- the only things that can successfully abate sound transmission are A) air space, and/or B) mass

- regardless of whether you choose air space, mass, or some combination thereof to abate sound transmission, if there are any gaps in the barrier you construct that allow air to pass between the two sides, the entire structure is compromised.

So yeah, building a box around that pipe would be a better solution than wrapping the pipe in insulation, but that box needs to be sealed, essentially airtight, it has to be large enough to allow a significant volume of internal space around the pipe (that's the air space) and it has to be constructed of multiple dense and preferably non-similar layers of heavy material (that's the mass).

It's doable (in my day job we design these structures fairly often) but it isn't cheap, it isn't easy...and it's way too easy to try to take a shortcut and wind up wasting all your time because the structure doesn't work effectively.

E.g., if it turns out there's also a small gap in the floor joists somewhere else in the room that also allows sound to pass up from your neighbor's apartment, the pipe-containing-box is pointless.

It's a concrete floor with a hole that the pipe just passes through with a small gap to allow movement.
I don't expect it to be completely soundproof (I live facing the elevated portion of the #1 train so I'm used to noise). But late at night it's like listening to Norman Bates arguing with his mother.

[rec head]

Have you done anything to determine how much is from the hole vs the pipe itself? Maybe stuffing the gap around the pipe and some towels over that just to experiment? If that pipe is full of water I don't think it is as much a problem transmitting voices as the hole.

[Bob Ross]

It's a concrete floor with a hole that the pipe just passes through with a small gap to allow movement.

You might be able to get a very modest amount of attenuation if you just sealed up the gap between the pipe and the concrete floor with acoustic caulk/sealant*. It's designed to remain compliant after it cures, so the pipe could still move and expand/contract, but sealing that opening could be the difference between hearing that someone's having a conversation downstairs vs. knowing every sordid detail about that conversation's content.

*Examples:
Green Glue Noiseproofing Sealant
QuietGlue Pro | QuietRock
Auralex Acoustics | Total Sound Control

[Peter Polack]

I would go the cheap route first, before building the box. I suspect most of the noise is through the air gap between the pipe and the floor, if that's the ONLY leak from floor to floor as Bob Ross suggests.

Here's one method to seal the air gap between the piping and the floor.

[johnmdesigner]

I wrapped the pipe with insulation this evening and stuffed some down the hole and wrapped it all up tight so we'll see if that helps. I'm going to investigate the acoustical sealant as well.
Pretty much know everything about the family including their Social Security numbers.

[johnmdesigner]

I would go the cheap route first, before building the box. I suspect most of the noise is through the air gap between the pipe and the floor, if that's the ONLY leak from floor to floor as Bob Ross suggests.

Here's one method to seal the air gap between the piping and the floor.

This looks like an excellent forum. Thanks for the link!

[johnmdesigner]

I'm just wondering if I squirt something into the gap should I wrap the pipe with a layer of wax paper or something so that the sealant doesn't actually bond to the pipe?

[j44ke]

If you use one of the heat compatible products, it should either release to allow movement or be flexible enough to move with the pipe. You might want to make sure whatever it is you spray/apply into the space between the pipe and the concrete, it doesn't flow into the downstairs apartment. That should be what the steel wool does - acts as a stopper for caulk or foam.

[johnmdesigner]

If you use one of the heat compatible products, it should either release to allow movement or be flexible enough to move with the pipe. You might want to make sure whatever it is you spray/apply into the space between the pipe and the concrete, it doesn't flow into the downstairs apartment. That should be what the steel wool does - acts as a stopper for caulk or foam.

Maybe if I pump enough foam in I can seal up the downstairs apartment. Problem solved!

[Drew]

Maybe if I pump enough foam in I can seal up the downstairs apartment. Problem solved!

You could fight fire with fire. Have a party at around 7am one morning (presuming they're asleep at that hour).

[Peter Polack]

I'm just wondering if I squirt something into the gap should I wrap the pipe with a layer of wax paper or something so that the sealant doesn't actually bond to the pipe?

Call a local fire sprinkler or plumbing company that sells fire stop caulk. Often times you can merely contact the manufacturer and they'll answer your tech questions about use and application of the product.

Note the red "Ask A 3M Expert" on the right of the screen.

If you use it, be sure to install the decorative escutcheon first, and mark its circumference with painter's tape. Then remove the escutcheon. Place painter's tape around the pipe as well so you know the caulk should not exceed that height. That way you'll know not to exceed that line with fire stop for a clean finish. Smooth the applied product as soon as its applied so the escutcheon will sit flat to the floor. Some solvents may be available to clean up overspilled product.