Middle east.

[DJB]

The downing of the airliner is a true tragedy; though something like this (unintended consequence) is completely predictable. I was surprised that the Iranians so clearly used state power, not disguised militia power, to strike back. I was very pleased to see our reaction was not to "hit back hard and fast."

It seems like, as a country, we consistently deal with what I think of as Micro vs. Macro problems. On the Micro side, the world is better off with QS gone. On the Macro side, assassinating government officials, even evil ones, makes the world much more dangerous and I find myself placing my emphasis there. There are people in the world who would place some of our government officials right alongside QS in the global rogues gallery. Unfortunately, it will probably be some poor State Department staffer who pays the price.

Was it not predictable that the killing of QS would unite the Iranians and solidify the grip on power that the current leadership has? I've been wrong before, and may be now, but I think this whole affair is a low point for us.

DJ

[Blue Jays]

"...Middle East..."

Excellent, reasonable, nuanced, and thoughtful post 221 above, DJB. Thank you.

[mzilliox]

this thread is so weird

[Dallas Tex]

this thread is so weird

Yes, the juxtaposition of liberals defending a hyper-oppressive murderous regime that denies its citizens the most basic human rights......it’s astounding.

[rwsaunders]

Just weird that a civilian plane was up in the air hours after the rocket attack, though reporter friends flew in and out of Chechnya and Sarajevo and other places in civilian planes under significantly more dangerous conditions so I guess maybe not so weird. But you would think the Iranians would want clear sky for just this very reason. But perhaps there was an agreement, and the Iranians knew there wasn't going to be a retaliation after the rocket attack. The three hour notice the US got that allowed them to secure personnel and assets and thus avoid casualties might not have been intelligence but the Iranians themselves.

The part that doomed the plane could have been when it turned around, if that's indeed what it did. And if it did indeed turn around before it was shot down (so many variables here) and not because it had been hit. S15 mobile rocket battery with crew out in the mountains outside Tehran and suddenly plane lights appear low on the horizon headed towards the airport that might be their mission to protect. No one told them the airport was open. Or they had been warned about any planes from this direction etc....

Here are the commercial planes that are currently in the air over one of the most volatile areas in the world...I’ll have to dig a little deeper to see what was happening over Tehran at the time of the strike.

[Colinmclelland]

Yes, the juxtaposition of liberals defending a hyper-oppressive murderous regime that denies its citizens the most basic human rights......it’s astounding.

The argument is more that regardless of whether or not the target deserved what he got, it wasn't a smart piece of "foreign policy" to do it.

If being a sub-optimal regime was the answer you'd be going after the Saudi royals surely?

And in a pearler of a critique of our government someone said today that Australia won't actually support the US in a war with Iran. We're just going to use carry over credits from the Iraq war.

Or alternatively, since our military only represents 0.1% of global military it's not worth our even trying!

[colker]

Yes, the juxtaposition of liberals defending a hyper-oppressive murderous regime that denies its citizens the most basic human rights......it’s astounding.

So you are worried and concerned about the well being of iranians... ok but why do they have to mimic america´s idea of freedom and human rights? The french believe human rights consist of universal health care, non religious public education including non paid access to their best universities. Should the french bomb America eventually to get you guys some human rights?

[fiveller]

Yes, the juxtaposition of liberals defending a hyper-oppressive murderous regime that denies its citizens the most basic human rights......it’s astounding.

Nobody is defending the regime. Point out where anyone was.

Meanwhile, explain why we are buddy buddies with N.K, S.A. and China?

[Dallas Tex]

So you are worried and concerned about the well being of iranians... ok but why do they have to mimic america´s idea of freedom and human rights? The french believe human rights consist of universal health care, non religious public education including non paid access to their best universities. Should the french bomb America eventually to get you guys some human rights?

None of that makes sense. Did it make more sense in your head before you typed it ?

[Dallas Tex]

If being a sub-optimal regime was the answer you'd be going after the Saudi royals surely?
!

Saudis? The regime that jails the female victims of rape for the crime of adultery?

I certainly wouldn’t become an apologist for the kingdom if we took out their mastermind terrorist after they attacked our troops & burned our embassy. Based on your position so far on Iran, can I assume that you would ?

[BBB]

The argument is more that regardless of whether or not the target deserved what he got, it wasn't a smart piece of "foreign policy" to do it.

If being a sub-optimal regime was the answer you'd be going after the Saudi royals surely?

Indeed.

But, why stop with the Saudis?

Authoritarian regime? Tick. A good squashing of human rights? Tick. Nukes? Tick. Territorial aggrandisement? Tick. So, when are the drones going in to knock off President Xi?

[BBB]

And in a pearler of a critique of our government someone said today that Australia won't actually support the US in a war with Iran. We're just going to use carry over credits from the Iraq war.

Or alternatively, since our military only represents 0.1% of global military it's not worth our even trying!

Ha! That is quite amusing. Who came up with that?

[j44ke]

Here are the commercial planes that are currently in the air over one of the most volatile areas in the world...I’ll have to dig a little deeper to see what was happening over Tehran at the time of the strike. >snip<

Yeah I am honestly amazed. I have an iphone app for tracking planes that is the same one the NYTimes has used to figure out where the Ukrainian plane was. I use it to figure out whether LaGuardia is accepting incoming flights or not and where the heck is my plane. I haven't been brave enough to look for the Ukrainian plane. Freaks me out a bit.

[bigbill]

Yeah I am honestly amazed. I have an iphone app for tracking planes that is the same one the NYTimes has used to figure out where the Ukrainian plane was. I use it to figure out whether LaGuardia is accepting incoming flights or not and where the heck is my plane. I haven't been brave enough to look for the Ukrainian plane. Freaks me out a bit.

Still makes no sense that a nation that just launched a dozen or so missiles at the Muricans in Iraq would allow an airplane to take off that soon afterward. It seemed entirely reasonable to assume that the US would have sent an airstrike in response and the Iranians would want to control their airspace to know who the bad guys (US) are.

[BBB]

You're right. It makes no sense at all.

Why were so many Canadians on the flight?

[Colinmclelland]

Saudis? The regime that jails the female victims of rape for the crime of adultery?

I certainly wouldn’t become an apologist for the kingdom if we took out their mastermind terrorist after they attacked our troops & burned our embassy. Based on your position so far on Iran, can I assume that you would ?

Nope. But I'm not a believer in "screw you we'll kill who we want when we want" foreign policy either.

Back to my point, you've killed this guy. He deserved it. But, wait the Saudis are bad guys too. And don't get me started on the Chinese. When is the US going to start killing them? Foreign policy could be more betterer.

[Colinmclelland]

Ha! That is quite amusing. Who came up with that?

Scott Morrison PM (parody) on twitter for carry over credits, but I think he was plagiarising. Can't find the military thing now. It was twitter too but the moment has passed, it would seem.

[Colinmclelland]

Worked my key problem with it:

It vigilantiism as foreign policy. Victims of vigilantiism always deserve it, but supposedly we're better than that. Countries should be. It's the argument that you can kill your way to a better world. I don't buy it.

[ChristianWong]

Why were so many Canadians on the flight?

There is no direct flight from Iran to Canada and the connection via Ukraine is a popular (low cost) option.

I'm Canadian and this hurts.

[sk_tle]

You're right. It makes no sense at all.

Why were so many Canadians on the flight?

They used that plane to Ukraine as a connection to other planes. If you count the number of victim by nationality as stated by the officials you can clearly see there is an overlap between iranian and foreign nationality. A whole lot of the victims had double nationality. There are more than 200k people living in Canada with both iranian and canadian nationality. Even though Christmas is not a muslim holiday, it would make sense that muslim irano-canadian people would decide to use the holiday period to visit some relatives when kids are out of school. It is very little known and they are a minority but there is also christian, jude, and zoroastrian diaspora in Iran (they even have representative in parliament).