It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[mjbabcock]

Oh and I guess the overall economy, low unemployment rate and prison reform under Trump doesn't matter, not "real problems"...

"those who would sacrifice justice for prosperity deserve neither"~Benjamin Franklin*

*something about liberty and security or some jazz...but the sentiment holds. The ongoing crap doesn't seem too far fraom the Clinton years. There was the Whitewater scandal, the suicide of that guy, the chatter about his infidelity, and then he lied about sexual relations with "that woman". When he tried to deceive, he was lying to congress. I'm actually glad he was impeached, as he wasn't truthful, and it's not the blowjob that was worthy of impeachment, but the deception. This is the president of our country! Newt et al. had it out for him from day one, but he deserved to have the stain (joke intended) on his record.
This president made a decision to leverage congressionally appointed aid to an ally for his own personal political gain. That is an abuse of his power as president. It's easy to claim that he was just trying to address corruption is bullshit. The guy had it out for one family, and it was his political opponent. He plays dirty, and learned it from the dirtiest (Manafort and R. Stone) who are now headed to jail.
I don't get to decide if he is removed from office, the Senate can; and I don't get to decide if he's back in 2020-24, the voters can, but he deserves an impeachment in his legacy.

I will add, if and when he is forced to release his financial records, I hope the House is willing to impeach him again if there is any financial impropriety.

[Saab2000]

indictable criminal conspiracy if Manafort and Stone weren't taking the fall for their don.

I continue to be amazed that people will take the fall for this guy. The number of people who have ruined their lives through their blind loyalty is amazing. People are in prison because of crimes committed in the name of Donald Trump, and more will be headed to prison. When he is out of office it will be curious if anyone has the stones to attempt to prosecute this president. It is pretty much established precedent that he can't be prosecuted while in office. But when out of office it's different.

[zachateseverything]

So it's ok for the Democrats to endlessly attack the President (from before he was even won) and continue on this grasping at straws impeachment- because the ELECTED President doesn't fit the mold we all expect the President to fit? How dare he try to keep campaign promises? How dare a non-politician leap over all career politicians to the White House?

Vote him out. That's how it's supposed to work.

Oh and I guess the overall economy, low unemployment rate and prison reform under Trump doesn't matter, not "real problems"...

Let's be clear about a couple things. It's ok for politicians to criticize each other on policy points. What many people are sick of are the temper tantrums, the blatant dishonesty, and the attempts to dismiss media criticisms of things that really happened as "fake" just because they're unflattering.

The impeachment is hardly grasping at straws. What would your reaction be if Obama had used the power of his office to pressure a foreign nation into investigating Mitt Romney before the 2012 election? I know I'd be furious.

The economic growth under Trump is about where it had been for the last 6 years under Obama (he inherited a terrible situation from W Bush and righted the ship). Take a look at US GDP since 1960. We've had linear growth since 2009. What remains a concern however is that interest rates are still suppressed, savings rates are low, and the federal deficit is already expanding (It shrank year over year under Obama, the GOP tax bill exploded it). Fiscal and monetary policy options to correct for the next downturn will be limited and with the low savings rate it means a lot of ordinary people are going to feel the hurt. It's also a problem that the President is actively trying to politicize what's a nominally apolitical and independent body.

https://miro.medium.com/max/5072/1*K...G9hMBQbQ4g.png

Jobs numbers similarly had a steady improvement over the last ten years. Trump didn't really do anything to improve things.

Yeah, a bi-partisan prison reform bill was passed. That's good. Most reforms need to happen at the state level though.

but the fact remains, when the GOP had a majority in both chambers of congress they weren't able to pass a healthcare bill or do anything other than ram through a top heavy tax cut bill that's exploding the deficit and widening the gap between rich and poor. None of the healthcare bills they brought up would have done more than repeal the ACA and most certainly didn't provide a workable solution to lower healthcare costs for regular Americans.

I know you're going to complain that the Dems in the house are focused on impeachment instead of passing legislation but this House has passed numerous bills that the obstructionist GOP leadership controlling the Senate refuses to bring to the floor for a vote. It's similar to how the last time the Dems held the Senate and passed bi-partisan bills on things like immigration reform obstructionist GOP leadership controlling the House refused to bring to the floor for a vote. It's almost like we only have one major political party in this country that's willing to operate in good faith.

[mnoble485]

I'm a simple man but it seems like we could boil this down to two questions.

1. Did he ask for assistance from a foreign power for information in exchange for something?

2. Does this meet the standards of high crimes and misdemeanors?

If yes on 1 proceed to 2.

You get two yesses from me.

All else is static.

Mike

[Ras72]

A stroll through his twitter page is all it takes for me to be embarrassed - at a global level.
To put things in perspective; if I was a child and my parents spoke to the neighbors in a same manner he conducts himself, I'd be embarrassed. Here, my parents represent me and my house hold.
Trump (after all the allegations - you take your pick - some of which cannot be disputed) at 67.6 million followers (many of which are there for entertainment purposes only) takes the embarrassment to a whole new level.
The good he's done cannot erase his means and methods. And to defend his antics for hate of an opposing party is blinding. You cannot disagree with democrats doing the same as republicans.

[Blue Jays]

The current array of Democrat candidates cannot even fill a typical suburban school classroom.
President Trump fills stadiums...with SRO crowds watching on huge monitors in the parking lot.
Folks should become comfortable with the likelihood President Trump will depart office in January 2025.

[Corso]

Honestly, aren't you all glad I chose to post an opinion?

Fire away my friends.

Come to think of it, We were all fired up in debate before the outcome of the Mueller investigation...and this place went radio silent after the result was released.

So has the "which potential Dem nominee will beat Trump" thread, as the Dems began to eat each other and drop out.

We only seem to flck it in gear when the opportunity to slam Trump is presented. You're welcome.

[HorsCat]

The current array of Democrat candidates cannot even fill a typical suburban school classroom.
President Trump fills stadiums...with SRO crowds watching on huge monitors in the parking lot.
Folks should become comfortable with the likelihood President Trump will depart office in January 2025.

I'm old enough to remember a "likelihood" of "President Hillary Clinton" and the attendant hubris of pro Clinton folks. Anyone who thinks that a second term for Trump is more probable than not isn't paying attention. Similarly, anyone who thinks that a second term for Trump is less probable than not also isn't paying attention.

[GrantM]

Honestly, aren't you all glad I chose to post an opinion?

no, not really.

-g

[Dallas Tex]

Honestly, aren't you all glad I chose to post an opinion?

no, not really.

-g

Corso,

Go easy my friend. These folks' world view is crumbling.

[j44ke]

I think there is very little doubt that Trump will win the next election. Not enough has changed in terms of his core support, and among the wealthy in this country, there is too much to gain from having Trump in office financially. The only states where wealthy people are doing less well are states where Democrat majority is assured, and the Democrats don't have a solid foothold in enough tipping point Electoral College states. I am pretty sure that the economy will tank in the second or third year of his second term, because that's been about when the economy has tanked for every Republican President after Nixon. No one cares right now about his inability to conclude trade negotiations with China, because he's shown a willingness to bail out the parties most affected by the drawn out period of tariffs and rhetoric. The aid to farmers under Trump has now exceeded that spent on the auto bailouts after 2008. Not that these bailouts are a bad thing, but my sense is that this is just a delay of the inevitable - an increase in the rate of farm bankruptcies over the next five years if real signed and sealed trade agreements are not reached with China and Canada (dairy farmers especially for Canada.)

New NAFTA has not been ratified by Canada or the US and the recent agreement with China was provisional and basically what China offered to the US from the get-go of hostilities.

Look at England. Labor had a made to order opportunity for victory and they squandered the fck out of it by saying they had no opinion on Brexit and putting up a nightmare candidate in Corbyn. Conservatives couldn't get anything done, and people held their noses and voted for Johnson because they were tired of the stupid Labor party doing stupid things. I think there are going to be a certain number of people in the swing states here in the US who are going to vote against the Democrats' drive to impeach because they see it not from a right versus wrong perspective but from a do-they-get-it-are-they-actually-listening-no-they-are-not perspective.

However, I think that arguing that somehow now that Democrats are being unfair to Republicans and Trump when it is what Republicans have been doing for years to Democrats is stupid. It's called politics. Bare knuckle power struggle. Trump had the executive branch and both houses of government and couldn't get anything done because he and his assorted amateur advisors insisted on repeatedly testing the Constitution. In a parliamentary system, now he would be locked in a coalition government. Perhaps most of the last several Presidents would have at least in their second term had to create some sort of coalition government if we had a parliamentary system. But instead, we have Congress. The Executive Branch gets the accelerator, and Congress gets the brakes. The Supreme Court has the gas money, except it feels like right now the car of state is a Prius.

But I really think arguing whether a bike forum is providing fair and balanced discussion of politics is a waste of time and hardly the sort of thing this time of year needs more of. No one is out taking photos of their bikes and posting them to the gallery section, no one is out buying widgets and doohickeys to put on the 3-4" space between the bar wrap ends on their handlebars, no one is rewatching the CX World Cup races from 1993 and evaluating the quality of the mud - the list goes on. Go get on the trainer, go outside, go support the cycling economy (I bought a balance bike today at 50% off for our neighbor's kid!) go for a walk a hike a breath of fresh air or some sort of bottle facsimile thereof.....

I am now going to go to Home Depot and get some lightbulbs and a bag of lint-free rags (which somehow never seem quite lint free.)

[j44ke]

Corso,

Go easy my friend. These folks' world view is crumbling.

Now that's just silly.

[Matthew Strongin]

Corso,

Go easy my friend. These folks' world view is crumbling.

How so?

[Dallas Tex]

However, I think that arguing that somehow now that Democrats are being unfair to Republicans and Trump when it is what Republicans have been doing for years to Democrats is stupid. It's called politics. Bare knuckle power struggle.

It was unfair when it was done to Clinton, and it's unfair now when it being done to Trump. I'd like to see an end to the wild fishing expeditions and the endless politically motivated investigations. I don't think impeachment was meant to be about blowjobs or subjective interpretations of a phone call.

[mzilliox]

The current array of Democrat candidates cannot even fill a typical suburban school classroom.
President Trump fills stadiums...with SRO crowds watching on huge monitors in the parking lot.
Folks should become comfortable with the likelihood President Trump will depart office in January 2025.

That would be real neato if a president's job were to "ENTERFUCKINGTAIN" but its not. i would love a boring ass president i never saw on tv or the news who just gets to work as the servant he or she is.

will any of you be voting for Trump? if so, why?

[thollandpe]

The current array of Democrat[ic] candidates cannot even fill a typical suburban school classroom.

That's a lie. Bernie Sanders, he's running for President in 2020. A Democratic candidate who fills stadiums and can work a room.

It's telling that somebody's still obsessed with the record crowds at Obama's inauguration, innit?

[mzilliox]

It was unfair when it was done to Clinton, and it's unfair now when it being done to Trump. I'd like to see an end to the wild fishing expeditions and the endless politically motivated investigations. I don't think impeachment was meant to be about blowjobs or subjective interpretation of a phone call.

subjective interpretations of a call? wtf man, Trump himself said the end result should be clear, he wants an investigation into the bidens. Its on camera, and its one of the few times i can understand all the words Trump says in a row. Its in a transcript, and there are actual civil servants testimony (id believe anyone's word before the liar that is trump, anyone. that alone should be enough for any American to out this man.) there is no lack of clarity, none. there is only attempts by trump's crew to obfuscate and then the regurgitation of said nonsense by supporters. there is nothing subjective about this anymore. please acknowledge this.

and of course its politically motivated, these are politicians playing at politics in the political arena. is there a way to not have political motivations in politics?

[mzilliox]

Corso,

Go easy my friend. These folks' world view is crumbling.

this makes it clear you are not actually communicating. you are just here to stir the pot.
there are now 3 of you, but why do you 3 support Trump? do you enjoy the lies? this question has yet to be answered.

just tell me why, don't change the subject with blah blah blah, tell me why you want to vote for Trump, and outline why you think he would be better for all Americans than anyone else at all.

heres why i wouldnt.

hes crass, crude, and a moron
he lies constantly
he doesnt like women or dogs
he thinks money is more important than life
he thinks some people are better than others
hes uneducated, and unwilling to listen to those that are
his policies are short sighted and destructive
he doesnt like the environment or public lands (freedom), which is where we ride bikes (unless you are a zwifty)
his kids kill rare animals for fun
he wants to have sex with his daughter
he picks fights and bullies anyone, but especially women and those in weaker positions than himself
he has no problem cheating people
he has no problem cheating his taxes
hes ugly and orange and grosses me out
he hates immigrants but married a couple of em
not one of my reasons mentions a side, or his party, because thats not terribly important anymore. character and service to the people are.

so why are you cats voting for him?

[Dallas Tex]

subjective interpretations of a call? wtf man,

Have you actually read the declassified transcript of the call? I have. I'll attach it to this post.

For those of you that haven't read it, question yourself honestly as to why you have such strong opinions on something you haven't read.



https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf

[Blue Jays]

"...hes crass, crude, and a moron
he lies constantly
he doesnt like women or dogs
he thinks money is more important than life
he thinks some people are better than others
hes uneducated, and unwilling to listen to those that are
his policies are short sighted and destructive
he doesnt like the environment or public lands (freedom), which is where we ride bikes (unless you are a zwifty)
his kids kill rare animals for fun
he wants to have sex with his daughter
he picks fights and bullies anyone, but especially women and those in weaker positions than himself
he has no problem cheating people
he has no problem cheating his taxes
hes ugly and orange and grosses me out
he hates immigrants but married a couple of em..."

Incorrect