It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[theflashunc]

If Trumps being impeached over the Ukraine phone call, then why did Nancy talk about Putin & Russia today while announcing the Impeachment team?

Last I looked, these are 2 separate issues.

...Yeah, the Dem team wants a fair trial.

Ultimately they're not. Russia ratfucked the 2016 election (Russia if you're listening, find the emails!) with assistance from the Trump campaign, and the Trump campaign is looking to do the same thing in 2020 with breaking news this week of a Russian hack of Burisma. Maybe sloppily worded, but the underlying premise is the same: Foreign powers should not play a role in US elections, and those running for President (and their campaign teams) should not solicit foreign aid in a campaign.

[mzilliox]

mayb

If Trumps being impeached over the Ukraine phone call, then why did Nancy talk about Putin & Russia today while announcing the Impeachment team?

Last I looked, these are 2 separate issues.

...Yeah, the Dem team wants a fair trial.

When has Ukraine not been connected to Russia, especially in regards to this? Trump has tried to peddle the conspiracy theory that Russia didn't hack the 2016 election, ukraine did. He brought Russia into this. Now Russians have hacked Burisma. lots more info is coming out, but this is old news now, this russian connection. I know, its hard to keep up with all of the lies regarding what was a "perfect" phone call.

What about mentioning Russia makes the trial that has not yet happened and is led by the Senate (who is playing the game of maybe calling no witnesses) unfair? And is not just the "dem team" thats wants a fair trial, it's America that wants a fair trial. You want a fair trial, right? well, Russia is a part of this. thats just how it is.

sure, totally unfair, such is life no?

[Scott G.]

Democrats Demand That Giuliani Be Trump’s Lawyer at Impeachment Trial | The New Yorker

That would bring colour to otherwise tedious proceedings,
otherwise stick with the Dear Leader Mitch's plan for a voice vote,
after 30 seconds of debate.
All in favour of getting re-elected vote aye and call it done.

[Matthew Strongin]

If Trumps being impeached over the Ukraine phone call, then why did Nancy talk about Putin & Russia today while announcing the Impeachment team?

Last I looked, these are 2 separate issues.

...Yeah, the Dem team wants a fair trial.

That's a pretty huge leap from Nancy playing politics by mentioning a related issue during an announcement to Dems not wanting a fair trial.

[HorsCat]

If Trumps being impeached over the Ukraine phone call, then why did Nancy talk about Putin & Russia today while announcing the Impeachment team?

Last I looked, these are 2 separate issues.

...Yeah, the Dem team wants a fair trial.

If Trump is innocent of the charges, he should have no problem with Pence, Pompeo, Mulvaney, and Bolton testifying to that effect in a public trial. Many people are saying he won't because he is guilty as sin.

[marley]

That's a pretty huge leap from Nancy playing politics by mentioning a related issue during an announcement to Dems not wanting a fair trial.

One would say that Corso has fallen of his rocker


How anyone given tRumps background "personally and professionally" can even think remotely about defending him is beyond me - I get why some disenfranchised segments of the population voted for him and his single issue topics which in my shallow opinion makes you a dumb ass single issue individual at best and at worst a racist, fear mongering dumb ass. I will leave the Evangelicals out for now because I will say something stupid about those mega churches and those freak pastors/holy man actually laying hands on that douche bag and praying.
It was their own version of a golden calf but those idiots were to stupid realize it was a spray on tan, painted on a pile human dung.

[Too Tall]

Folks this is a very valued conversation. One of the better substantive political topics in recent memory.

Least this devolve further please retrain your thoughts on reasoned, measured responses devoid of personal imbroglio.

You dig?

Josh

[AngryScientist]

it seems almost common knowledge that the whole idea of a trial is a farce, no? there is very little doubt, on either side that trump is in fact guilty of the crimes he is accused of, but the trail is just a dog-and-pony show since the outcome is pre-determined.

is my view too simplistic? it's a complicated matter, but the above is the bottom line?

[Dallas Tex]

One would say that Corso has fallen of his rocker
.

Corso? You good folks are the mob that have deluded themselves into believing that Dems want a fair trial. They don’t. It’s delusional to believe they do.

[theflashunc]

Corso? You good folks are the mob that have deluded themselves into believing that Dems want a fair trial. They don’t. It’s delusional to believe they do.

Calling witnesses is not a fair trial?

That's my understanding as the only request that they've been haggling over. And Mitch has won that particular political battle on first pass.

[mzilliox]

Corso? You good folks are the mob that have deluded themselves into believing that Dems want a fair trial. They don’t. It’s delusional to believe they do.

how would you explain this? one side proclaims to be innocent while blocking witnesses and stating the trial will most likely be a sham and foregone conclusion. one side is trying to get information out. how does your concept of a trial, or fairness differ from ours in this instance? the senate gets control of the next steps. if the guy is innocent and this is a farce and unfair, it should be pretty easy to call the witnesses to the stand to say so, or am i missing something?

is there some alternate reality where the "perfect innocent" trying to completely dodge his trial, and make witnesses do the same looks fair? while simply trying to make sure there is a trial, no matter how farcical the controlling element will make the trial, is unfair?

i mean is this supposed to be said in good faith? really? wow

[Dallas Tex]

Calling witnesses is not a fair trial?

That's my understanding as the only request that they've been haggling over. And Mitch has won that particular political battle on first pass.

Do you actually believe the Dems want a fair ‘trial’ ? I put trial in quotes because this isn’t exactly a real trial in most aspects. It’s a political process.

But do you think the Dems want a fair trial? Or do they simply want to affect trump in the most negative way possible?

One last question. Do you think the the portion of the impeachment that took place in the house was run in a fair way? Because the folks running wanted a fair process as their main priority?

[mzilliox]

Do you actually believe the Dems want a fair ‘trial’ ? I put trial in quotes because this isn’t exactly a real trial in most aspects. It’s a political process.

But do you think the Dems want a fair trial? Or do they simply want to affect trump in the most negative way possible?

One last question. Do you think the the portion of the impeachment that took place in the house was run in a fair way? Because the folks running wanted a fair process as their main priority?

I believe America wants a fair trial and the democratic representatives, as well as some of the republican ones do too. I think the democrats will have very little control in the next steps, therefore it hardly matters what they want, only what is real and right and true. and yes, the democrats and and many Americans, would like to affect trump negatively... is there anything more negative than removal from office? thats the point of this. its exactly why we are here today. The Majority of America is behind this.
I have no idea what your last question is actually trying to ask, but it seems to me that overall, yes, procedure was seemingly done correct, the reasons are strong, the American public supports the notion, and overall, its happened so infrequently, there is very little precedent for you to conclude anything about the early stages were unfair. which parts strike you as unfair. More unfair than not showing up at all, or blocking people who have said they wish to testify from testifying?

your turn for answers:
I know you will not admit his actions were impeachable at this point. but if you were to be presented with the indisputable evidence that this did in fact happen the way he is being accused of it happening, (or perhaps marginally worse as more evidence comes out) That trump did in fact use America's resources for his personal gain in an election, putting political force on a foreign nation to dig up dirt on a rival for political gain, thereby influencing the next election, then what would you think of the situation? would you think this all a farce? would you think perhaps there is some merit to impeachment? or is it now ok for all candidates to use force or coercion to gain the edge in elections via the help of foreign nations? is it ok to cheat now?

[Dallas Tex]

how would you explain this? one side proclaims to be innocent while blocking witnesses and stating the trial will most likely be a sham and foregone conclusion. one side is trying to get information out. how does your concept of a trial, or fairness differ from ours in this instance? the senate gets control of the next steps. if the guy is innocent and this is a farce and unfair, it should be pretty easy to call the witnesses to the stand to say so, or am i missing something?

is there some alternate reality where the "perfect innocent" trying to completely dodge his trial, and make witnesses do the same looks fair? while simply trying to make sure there is a trial, no matter how farcical the controlling element will make the trial, is unfair?

i mean is this supposed to be said in good faith? really? wow

Let me help you understand. This isn’t really a trial. The outcome is a forgone conclusion. The Dems tightly controlled their portion in the house, don’t be shocked when the repubs do the same.

This entire Ukraine thing was simply to distract attention from the amazing 2.5 year collusion fiasco that went nowhere. They got egg on their face and instead of cleaning it off, they pushed forward in the same direction and have decided to ‘pull the goalie’ and go down with the mess of a ship they created.

Do you honestly believe Pelosi survives this ?

[theflashunc]

Do you actually believe the Dems want a fair ‘trial’ ? I put trial in quotes because this isn’t exactly a real trial in most aspects. It’s a political process.

But do you think the Dems want a fair trial? Or do they simply want to affect trump in the most negative way possible?

One last question. Do you think the the portion of the impeachment that took place in the house was run in a fair way? Because the folks running wanted a fair process as their main priority?

If by fair trial you mean a good faith review of the evidence presented, witnesses called, and then a vote taken. Then yes, Congressional Democrats want a fair trial.

And I don't know what standard anyone would use to define the House process as unfair. Republicans were in every hearing, both closed and open, with the ability to ask questions for the same length of time as their Democratic counterparts. Did they get their Ukrainian conspiracy theory witnesses called? No, because they didn't have the votes for them, but did get their Constitutional scholars called to Judiciary Committee hearings.

The process was speedy because time is of the essence with the President attempting to solicit foreign influence in the 2020 election. There was not, and is not, time to sit around for 2 years while the judiciary decides on executive privilege questions for senior administration officials. And frankly, while it'd be great to have the testimony and documents from Mulvaney, Bolton, Perry, Pence, et al, there's more than enough direct evidence to tie the President directly to a scheme to abuse the power of the office to withhold Congressionally approved foreign aid for the benefit of his own re-election campaign. There has been no substantive rebuttal to this argument that I've seen other than now devolving to "Well, he did it but it's not wrong" which is a dangerous and expansive view of executive power contrary to what the Founders intended.

[theflashunc]

Do you honestly believe Pelosi survives this ?

Given the tidal wave of the 2018 midterms and the expectation that anti-Trump energy will continue into the 2020 ballot box -- and the canary in the coal mine of all the Republican retirements in the House -- all the evidence points to the Democrats keeping the House majority. Now, is their majority trimmed somewhat as some of those battleground seats flip? Sure.

But she's proven to the Tim Ryan's and other Blue Dogs in the caucus that she's a far more savvy political operator than they wanted to give her credit for. She's done a better job keeping her caucus together than Boehner, Ryan or McCarthy.

[Matthew Strongin]

One last question. Do you think the the portion of the impeachment that took place in the house was run in a fair way? Because the folks running wanted a fair process as their main priority?

How was it run in an unfair way?

[Matthew Strongin]

This entire Ukraine thing was simply to distract attention from the amazing 2.5 year collusion fiasco that went nowhere. They got egg on their face and instead of cleaning it off, they pushed forward in the same direction and have decided to ‘pull the goalie’ and go down with the mess of a ship they created.

Wait, whut? Is your stance, essentially, that the Ukraine phone call was, in fact, perfect and this is all made up, despite a number of sworn testimonies supporting the evidence that Trump withheld aid to pressure a foreign government to assist him with a political objective?

[mzilliox]

Parnas interview tonight at 9 pm eastern time. this could get more interesting.

[jclay]

Do you actually believe the Dems want a fair ‘trial’ ? I put trial in quotes because this isn’t exactly a real trial in most aspects. It’s a political process.

But do you think the Dems want a fair trial? Or do they simply want to affect trump in the most negative way possible?

One last question. Do you think the the portion of the impeachment that took place in the house was run in a fair way? Because the folks running wanted a fair process as their main priority?

Given your life experience, Trump's behavior and all the information that's been made public do you actually believe that his withholding of military aid was because of his concern about Ukrainian corruption, and not merely an attempt to coerce Prez Z to make announcements that would harm Joe Biden in the 2020 elections?

It's laughable.

Nothing else matters. He abused the power of his office in furtherance of his political ambitions and for that he should be removed from office.

Trump has been caught setting the house on fire and his supporters are taking issue with the fire fighters and the person who called the fire department.