It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[mzilliox]

Thank you very much for sharing this. Prescient indeed.

I think at the end of the day, most citizens know this is not behavior befitting of the office and when they comment on past presidents, they are only being cynical, they dont really believe past presidents lied this much, or cheated this much, pit people against one another this much, or were this poor at the job.

Just like this was an experiment in voting for a populist outsider, this is also an experiment on the functionality of our government. We can show our government functions by removing a leader who does not match the ideals of the citizens, who has violated many oaths, and who has now removed the whistelblower protection, further damaging a well functioning and honest government.

im just hoping those who partcipated in the first experiement are willing to participate in the second, after all, they created the need, the least they can do is be honest about the outcome.
'''Game changer''': Top Democrats say bombshell report shows need for witnesses in Senate impeachment trial
""Let me be clear, this is about getting to the truth," the Democratic leader said. "Will the Senate hold a fair trial or will it enable a cover-up? President Trump, if you are so confident you did nothing wrong, why won't you let your men testify?""

[mzilliox]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...1db_story.html
im tired of talking, the pros can take over

"As I said above, I don’t envy you. You’re on a big stage now. Please don’t accept an alternate reality that would have us believe in things that obviously are not true, in the service of executive behavior that we never would have encouraged and a theory of executive power that we have always found abhorrent"

[choke]

For shits and giggles, I re-read George Washington's farewell address. I believe he would be appalled by the current state of American democracy, in particular as it regards the GOP and its feckl...er...fearless coward of a leader. His prescience is impressive (emphasis in the quotes mine):


On the GOP’s hyper-factionalism:

“Let me now take a more comprehensive view and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally. This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but in those of the popular form it is seen in its greatest rankness and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation on the ruins of public liberty.
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and the duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it. It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.”

It's interesting that you see that hyper-factionalism as only coming from the GOP. It comes from both parties.....one only has to read this thread to realize that.....and I think that Washington would have been appalled at the actions of pretty much everyone in Congress. I would have definitely emphasized this sentence: The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. That describes both sides perfectly.

[zachateseverything]

It's interesting that you see that hyper-factionalism as only coming from the GOP. It comes from both parties.....one only has to read this thread to realize that.....and I think that Washington would have been appalled at the actions of pretty much everyone in Congress. I would have definitely emphasized this sentence: The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. That describes both sides perfectly.

Oh come on. Knock it off with this "both sides" crap. It's pretty blatant that the GOP is significantly more likely to put party (or personal interests) over country than the dems. Democrats will actually reach across the aisle and engage in bi-partisanship. What did the dems do the last time they had control of congress and the white house? Instead of ramming though a single payer healthcare reform bill their base would have loved they used ideas originally put forth from a conservative think tank (and still didn't get any support from the GOP). There was healthy debate and attempts to be inclusive of GOP ideas.

Here are some relatively recent sins committed by the GOP:

- refusing to take up a Senate vote on the (centrist) Supreme Court appointment of a Democrat President
- refusing to take a House vote on a bi-partisan immigration reform bill that passed the Senate
- refusing to vote on any measure passed by the Democratically led House.

[mzilliox]

since you highlight despotism, shall we define it?

the exercise of absolute power, especially in a cruel and oppressive way.
you find this applies equally to both parties? interesting

But we are speaking of impeachment. lets recall the last one. Many democrats broke with party in the search for the truth last time. your argument thins.

lastly i will remind you that some of us are not in fact of a party, we are simply humans with a morality that cannot let this behavior go unchecked, i think this would describe the majority of folksopposed to trump, so be honest in your assesment of the situation. there is no equivalence in the amount of blind party faith. Following up with this impeachement is simply the right thing to do, we all know this to be true. Its already been passed in the house, the next step is to have the Senate trial for which the players have already said they would not be fair. so again, which party is shirking duty for partisan reasons?

while you see revenge in the eyes of democrats (more base and emotionally stirring feelings), the majority of sensible Americans (democrats, republicans, and all others) see an issue that should be handled with the utmost care and seriousness, and with the spirit of democracy as we have all come to know and trust, which does not involve 2 seperate but equal branches of government combining their powers for the good of one branch. That is partisan politics being practiced by one side. that Democrats have begun responding to this type of Trumpian politics is a bit disappointing, but understandable, because the only way to deal with a BOOR is to speak their language. that some democrats would become hyperpartisan is only a reaction, not the playbook, suggesting otherwise is simply dishonest, nobody has ever seen this type of hyperpartisanship Trump represents here in America, never.

As a voter, i only want to know the truth of the matter, if this were a democrat president (which is a dumb premise, because only certain types of people conduct themselves in the way Trump does) i would want nothing less than the truth as it is, regardless of party affiliation. im not that concerned with party, it really seems quite dumb to me to attach a label like that to ones self, when we all change in life with experiences (or at least we are all able to change with life experience, i realize some folks dont change much). Why does your party ID act so strongly? its not sensible for a democracy to think this way.

are you more interested in your party? in winning? or in the truth? Or in practicing democracy?

[choke]

Oh come on. Knock it off with this "both sides" crap.

It's pretty clear that you and I see the world differently.

are you more interested in your party? in winning? or in the truth? Or in practicing democracy?

I don't have a party. IMO the politicians in both major US parties don't care about anything other than getting (re-)elected and sticking it to the other side.

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." - Mark Twain

[colker]

I don't have a party. IMO the politicians in both major US parties don't care about anything other than getting (re-)elected and sticking it to the other side.

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." - Mark Twain

This has been repeated everywhere: "politicians are self serving . politicians this and that.." as if they were a special breed or class or nation. Seems like "the people" are waking up to "get rid of parasites".
Democracy is made w/ politicians. In the absence of politicians you have tyrannies. The idea of direct democracy without politics and parties is nothing but a lie. It does not happen. Without politics you lose rights.

[Corso]

Oh come on. Knock it off with this "both sides" crap. It's pretty blatant that the GOP is significantly more likely to put party (or personal interests) over country than the dems. Democrats will actually reach across the aisle and engage in bi-partisanship.

I just about covered my laptop by spitting beer through my nose!

What a Bizarro world we now live in.

Democrats reaching across the aisle? Maybe in your state with local politics, but certainly not on the big stage. Did you ever see Obama's, Warrens's or Markey's voting record?

BOTH SIDES PLAY THE SAME GAME. Period.

Personal interest over country? Do you know what the Whitewater investigation was about? Why do you think Hillary latter kept her server at home? She learned from her past.

How about this doublespeak?

Obama 2018:“Right now I’m actually surprised by how much money I got,” the 44th President said in his address to more than 10,000 people gathered in Johannesburg, South Africa, on Tuesday. “There’s only so much you can eat. There’s only so big a house you can have. There’s only so many nice trips you can take. I mean, it’s enough.”

2019: He buys a 15 Million dollar house on the Vineyard. How much is really enough Barry? Politics did pretty well for him, no?

My New Year's resolution of staying out of political here just went out the window.

[theflashunc]

How about this doublespeak?

Obama 2018:“Right now I’m actually surprised by how much money I got,” the 44th President said in his address to more than 10,000 people gathered in Johannesburg, South Africa, on Tuesday. “There’s only so much you can eat. There’s only so big a house you can have. There’s only so many nice trips you can take. I mean, it’s enough.”

2019: He buys a 15 Million dollar house on the Vineyard. How much is really enough Barry? Politics did pretty well for him, no?

My New Year's resolution of staying out of political here just went out the window.

Which he's earned through book deals and speaking fees being one of the most popular ex-Presidents that we'll see in our lifetimes. While a lot of his supporters, myself included, disagreed with his incrementalist approach to policy and unending efforts to assume the other side was ever operating in good faith, he certainly did all he could to represent all Americans, not just those who happened to tick his name at the ballot box, during an incredibly trying time for our country. He's someone who handled nearly 7 years of racist attacks on birthplace (started in large part by the current President) with grace, and the occasional willingness to stick the knife in when those claims were proven as baseless as pretty much anything else the current President says or does.

He was and is, by pretty much every measure, a better man than the current President and that clearly drives the current President absolutely wild with anger and jealousy.

So yeah, Barry's earned that house on the Vineyard, and the implication his success stems from some form of corruption is as sad as it is predictable.

[jclay]

I just about covered my laptop by spitting beer through my nose!

What a Bizarro world we now live in.

Democrats reaching across the aisle? Maybe in your state with local politics, but certainly not on the big stage. Did you ever see Obama's, Warrens's or Markey's voting record?

BOTH SIDES PLAY THE SAME GAME. Period.

Personal interest over country? Do you know what the Whitewater investigation was about? Why do you think Hillary latter kept her server at home? She learned from her past.

How about this doublespeak?

Obama 2018:“Right now I’m actually surprised by how much money I got,” the 44th President said in his address to more than 10,000 people gathered in Johannesburg, South Africa, on Tuesday. “There’s only so much you can eat. There’s only so big a house you can have. There’s only so many nice trips you can take. I mean, it’s enough.”

2019: He buys a 15 Million dollar house on the Vineyard. How much is really enough Barry? Politics did pretty well for him, no?

My New Year's resolution of staying out of political here just went out the window.

Soooo....maybe it's time to vote for Bernie?

Don't expect a reply, I mistakenly stumbled through the door and figured I'd flip a dart at the dartboard on my way quickly back out.

Good luck to humanity...not to mention all the other critters who live here and don't deserve us.

[Corso]

So yeah, Barry's earned that house on the Vineyard, and the implication his success stems from some form of corruption is as sad as it is predictable.

I have no problem with anyone making money- I believe in the capitalism-and did not imply he made his from corruption at all. He made it from being a politician. Embrace being wealthy. Don't preach to an audience about the wealthy while charging them money so you can accumulate the wealth your complain about.

I disagree he was President for everybody. He didn't give the right a second glance until they had an advantage in house.

Remember Aunti Zeituni? His aunt who overstayed her visa and was ordered to leave the country twice, lived on public assistance in Boston? He had the wealth to support her, but guess what, my taxes did instead.

I know it's hard to listen to anything negative about President Obama, but there are still many questions about him. But no one really cares to look behind the curtain. Don't forget a lot of this Trump investigation crap was under Obama's watch.

Better than Trump? Yeah, if he was running against him, I may have voted for Obama.

Remember that Obama leaped over Hillary for the nomination. Her payback for stepping aside was her Secretary of State position. and I believe she demanded the Democratic party refund the money she sunk into her campaign.

Off the track again, but my point is to underline that both Dems and the GOP are the same, they just have different labels applied to them. The Dems do have a better PR department, I'll grant the that.

[theflashunc]

I disagree he was President for everybody. He didn't give the right a second glance until they had an advantage in house.

His signature policy accomplishment that the GOP and the current President are trying to dismantle is a Heritage Foundation idea that was shown to be successful by Mitt Romney of all people when he was governor of Massachusetts. That legislation included over 160 accepted amendments from GOP Congressional members after nearly two dozen public hearings and working sessions that included GOP members, all while fending off a strong push from more liberal factions in the Democratic caucus for a more radical realignment of healthcare in this country. And this is when the Democrats held both houses of Congress and the Presidency. I'd dig up the photos showing the conversations between Boehner and Obama about this, but I don't want to rehash the ACA passage.

And stepping beyond the nitty gritty of legislation, in what universe can his response to tragedies like Sandy Hook and Charleston, or moments like bin Laden's death, be viewed as anything other than attempts to unite and elevate the discourse, to acknowledge pain we all feel and the commonalities we all have as Americans, rather than the insane rhetoric we hear on a daily basis today.

There is no universe where Obama and Trump can be compared as politicians, statesman and leaders. The two could not be more different, or more capable, at the jobs they did. Obama did everything he could to engage the right on a common political process, but Mitch and team took their ball and went home from the word jump. Wanted him to be a one-termer after all.

[mzilliox]

I have no problem with anyone making money- I believe in the capitalism-and did not imply he made his from corruption at all. He made it from being a politician. Embrace being wealthy. Don't preach to an audience about the wealthy while charging them money so you can accumulate the wealth your complain about.

I disagree he was President for everybody. He didn't give the right a second glance until they had an advantage in house.

Remember Aunti Zeituni? His aunt who overstayed her visa and was ordered to leave the country twice, lived on public assistance in Boston? He had the wealth to support her, but guess what, my taxes did instead.

I know it's hard to listen to anything negative about President Obama, but there are still many questions about him. But no one really cares to look behind the curtain. Don't forget a lot of this Trump investigation crap was under Obama's watch.

Better than Trump? Yeah, if he was running against him, I may have voted for Obama.

Remember that Obama leaped over Hillary for the nomination. Her payback for stepping aside was her Secretary of State position. and I believe she demanded the Democratic party refund the money she sunk into her campaign.

Off the track again, but my point is to underline that both Dems and the GOP are the same, they just have different labels applied to them. The Dems do have a better PR department, I'll grant the that.

you seem to confuse the idea of right and left with humans. everybody means the policy benefits the majority, it has nothing to do with right or left, as there is no such thing. every single intance is different, to box yourslef into right or left on any given policy is simply dishonest or lazy. a policy measure should be judged not on which party decided to float the idea, but on how many citizens it helps.

a democratic policy that helps the majority helps the "right" as you need to define it. it doesnt help the "right" in terms of victories for the party, but thats not the point of "OUR" government is it?
lets take the auto industry. Obama required better emission standards which helped in 2 ways. cleaner air for all people. better competition for auto makers in against foreign cars who were outselling domestic cars.

Lets think about better gun control laws, specifically more strict background checks. this has majority support in america, close to 70%. however, it would be seen as a loss to the "Right" so about 25% of that 70% of Americans won't vote for their interest, and no republican politician will ever support this, because they would see it as a party win for the other side. this is not governance for everyone, this is governance for party preservation.

But more obama era things for all. Military spending was high and conservative. Not many people argued with hsi level of spenindg, because he combined it with pulling troops out of Afghanastan and Iraq, to bi partisan support. however, it could be seen by lthe left as still too much into the war coffers.

The Paris accord was for everyone, all humans on this planet, nobody can argue agianst the benefits of less pollution as it applies to citizens.

The clean air act was for all of us.

and lastly, beginning the talk about national health care, or health care reform was begun. I know not everyone wanted obama care, or the affordable care act, which actually has more support than if you call it Obama care (teams again). but to say this was not governance with every Americans well being in mind is dishonest. the intention of this is literally the well being of Americans, and an improvement to our admittedly inefficinet and ill performing system. it wasnt perfect, no first try ever is, but it opened the dialogue we all need to have. and this was for the benefit of every American, across party lines.

and of course it goes both ways, im sure you can think of a republican topic that may help more than it hurts that is not supported by democrats, im drawing a blank right now though.

all the while thorugh the Obama presidency i never heard about my enemy the republicans. I never heard about how if the other side wins, the american dream is over. i never heard any propaganda about civil wars, or presidents bypassing norms and joking about 3rd terms. and there were no scandals, no mater what behind the curtain nonsense you try to infer. the fact is he was clean while president, no mistresses, no shooting people on streets, no pussy grabbing, no devisive language, no attempts to pit American vs American, no rhetoric that some Americans are more American than others.

so yeah, governance for everyone, and in consideration of others, i miss that. To suggest the same is occuring under this administration seems to me to ignore what is actually happening right now, just listen to the mans words, he has no desire whatsoever to govern for everyone, he prrefers to pit you against me, every day, naming me your enemy. Hes not even trying to govern for his enemies, which are Americans.
Trump Ad Slams Democrats After White Supremacist Rally | Time

[theflashunc]

And in today's news, written proof from OMB that the hold on Ukraine aid came directly from President Trump, with no reason given for why the aid was held nor any reason for why it was released.

Donald Trump ordered hold of Ukraine aid according to White House budget official - CNNPolitics

[Corso]

I guess the low unemployment rate is only talking about Republicans, the prison reform has only released Republicans, and enforcing long standing immigration laws are a way to ensure only Republicans don't lose jobs or their lives to illegals.

If you never heard the Republicans were the "enemy" during President Obama's tenure, the rose colored glasses extended over your ears also.

Matt, we see things differently. We should simply leave it at that.

[theflashunc]

...enforcing long standing immigration laws are a way to ensure only Republicans don't lose jobs or their lives to illegals.

Ah yes, locking children in cages, separating them from their parents indefinitely while making both minors and adults live in appalling conditions. Good thing those jobs very few white Americans actually want in our restaurants, hotels, and agriculture industry have been preserved! Sure is great that someone's whose ancestors immigrated here gets to close the door behind him to those most desperate for aid, comfort and are seeking the American Dream. Yup, let's hold our heads high for this stain on the national conscience happening in real time.

"Illegals." C'mon man.

[sk_tle]

all the while thorugh the Obama presidency i never heard about my enemy the republicans. I never heard about how if the other side wins, the american dream is over. i never heard any propaganda about civil wars, or presidents bypassing norms and joking about 3rd terms. and there were no scandals, no mater what behind the curtain nonsense you try to infer. the fact is he was clean while president, no mistresses, no shooting people on streets, no pussy grabbing, no devisive language, no attempts to pit American vs American, no rhetoric that some Americans are more American than others.

As a non US guy living outside of the USA do not forget as well the representation part. Obama gave a rather good image of what USA can be and satire directed towards him were very few. Trump on the other hand makes the whole USA country look rather stupid from outside. Any Trump voter should be ashamed really.

While preaching tolerance, inclusion, and diversity these sentiments are not typically shared with riders who support President Trump.
How would y'all extend friendship and welcome to a rider unloading his/her bicycle out of a vehicle with a TRUMP 2020 bumpersticker?

Don't know about the riding but I would definitely not invite you in a garden party or anywhere close to my daughters given your inconditionnal support to trump and his promotion of sexual abuse and misoginy.

It is not about being from the left or right. It is about endorsing hate, racism, lies, corruption, crime and putting your own country in peril as well as being hostile to anyone not sharing Trump's views.

[Matthew Strongin]

enforcing long standing immigration laws are a way to ensure only Republicans don't lose jobs or their lives to illegals.

We've been through this before on immigration and crime. I won't post all the articles and studies again, but illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born Americans. This argument comes from the same disinformation fear mongering that was discussed up thread. That's not to discount the tragedy of anyone being murdered, but curbing immigration is far from the best strategy for keeping citizens safe. One could also pretty easily argue that blocking asylum seekers isn't exactly enforcing the laws on the books.

[colker]

Ah yes, locking children in cages, separating them from their parents indefinitely while making both minors and adults live in appalling conditions. Good thing those jobs very few white Americans actually want in our restaurants, hotels, and agriculture industry have been preserved! Sure is great that someone's whose ancestors immigrated here gets to close the door behind him to those most desperate for aid, comfort and are seeking the American Dream. Yup, let's hold our heads high for this stain on the national conscience happening in real time.

"Illegals." C'mon man.

It makes deportation and encarceration of jews in eastern europe in 1930/40s kinda coherent; maybe acceptable ? After all they were not nationals according to antisemitic common sense. It´s a shame jewish community reps end up supporting Trump and his allies (at least here.. and i make sure they don´t represent me) everywhere but that´s another can of worms.

[colker]

I won't post all the articles and studies again, but illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born Americans. .

Their children also end up W/ medals for bravery under military service defending US values overseas. Encarceration of immigrants takes away some of the shine from those medals.