It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[Corso]

Bash Trump?, we just point out his character, his character bashes itself. changing someone's mind requires presenting an arguement that is contrary to the pervasive thought right? That is why we have laid out facts to the contrary of Trump being a good leader, a decent human, someone worthy of the office. His character flaws is exactly why he faces this impeachment, he acts in his own interests, and thats not desireable for someone who is suposed to act in the ineterest of millions. Would you like to present to us an argument that Trump is actually a good human being, a man of service to the people, a man worthy of leading this country, a man who cinsiders all of us when making choices for the nation? this is the only way to change our minds. I welcome the attempts to paint Trump as a statesman, a servant of the people, a humanitarian worthy of governing. please, present a case, change our minds. show me that Trump is in fact not a liar, that he has not cheated, that he is not the things we accuse him of being.

stop pretending like there is an equivalence. nobody is making any attempts to change our minds about Trump's character, because that attempt would be ridiculous at best, and his character is all he is.

I've never-NEVER stated he wasn't a liar, didn't cheat, etc all...He has many flaws, and yes make me roll my eyes daily. But he WON and is the PRESDIENT. That's the simple fact many can't accept.

I typically point out the double standards many have when letting others get a pass-politicians they like.
Cheater? Clinton-Period. Didn't or still doesn't matter to most, so bad example. JFK is still the patron saint of the left.
Liar? "You can keep your Doctor...." Obama sold that whopper time and time again.
Adam Schiff? Does he know what telling the truth is?
Biden? His threat about the Ukraine prosecutor being removed was ok, I guess...
I could go on and on, but it's not worth it.

"good human being"----You think Hillary is? I think she's the lowest of the low- the prime example of political insider elitism. So I voted with my party- and that was Trump.

No politician is perfect. But all focus locks on Trump, from day one. Members of the senate and congress wanted to impeach him from the first day in office. That's fair, right?

You can point out the facts, but then I see emotions here run rampart calling the President every name in the book. That's not fact, that's hot headed opinion.
You keep thinking this forum is about changing peoples minds. I don't particularly see it that way.

This paper thin impeachment is to try to derail his re-election, and you know that. But go ahead, stick by the excuse that this is about the abuse of power. This is simply plan B- as the Mueller investigation didn't pan out.

If your gold standard of truth telling, non-cheating, decent human beings without character flaws holding office was what determined who runs or country, we'd have a lot of empty offices in Washington.

Remember this?

“Elections have consequences,” Obama told then number two Republican Rep. Eric Cantor. “And at the end of the day, I won. So I think on that one I trump you.”

Obama saying this is "cute". If Trump said it, it would be criminal.

[johnmdesigner]

In a democracy, people elect the politicians they deserve.
Joseph de Maistre

[ides1056]

"JFK is still the patron saint of the left."

Hardly. Read The Dark Side of Camelot, by Sy Hersch.

"If your gold standard of truth telling, non-cheating, decent human beings without character flaws holding office was what determined who runs or country, we'd have a lot of empty offices in Washington."

I saw several who showed up to testify and represent the best our country has to offer in the way of a gold standard.

[colker]

In a democracy, people elect the politicians they deserve.
Joseph de Maistre

DE Maistre was an ultra reactionary who hated democracy. People make mistakes on a democracy and learn from their mistakes.. unlike the regime Msr DE Maistre admired.

[colker]

I've never-NEVER stated he wasn't a liar, didn't cheat, etc all...He has many flaws, and yes make me roll my eyes daily. But he WON and is the PRESDIENT. That's the simple fact many can't accept.

I typically point out the double standards many have when letting others get a pass-politicians they like.
Cheater? Clinton-Period. Didn't or still doesn't matter to most, so bad example. JFK is still the patron saint of the left.
Liar? "You can keep your Doctor...." Obama sold that whopper time and time again.
Adam Schiff? Does he know what telling the truth is?
Biden? His threat about the Ukraine prosecutor being removed was ok, I guess...
I could go on and on, but it's not worth it.

"good human being"----You think Hillary is? I think she's the lowest of the low- the prime example of political insider elitism. So I voted with my party- and that was Trump.

No politician is perfect. But all focus locks on Trump, from day one. Members of the senate and congress wanted to impeach him from the first day in office. That's fair, right?

You can point out the facts, but then I see emotions here run rampart calling the President every name in the book. That's not fact, that's hot headed opinion.
You keep thinking this forum is about changing peoples minds. I don't particularly see it that way.

This paper thin impeachment is to try to derail his re-election, and you know that. But go ahead, stick by the excuse that this is about the abuse of power. This is simply plan B- as the Mueller investigation didn't pan out.

If your gold standard of truth telling, non-cheating, decent human beings without character flaws holding office was what determined who runs or country, we'd have a lot of empty offices in Washington.

Remember this?

“Elections have consequences,” Obama told then number two Republican Rep. Eric Cantor. “And at the end of the day, I won. So I think on that one I trump you.”

Obama saying this is "cute". If Trump said it, it would be criminal.

You make it sound like those who want Trump impeached are spoiled children who won´t accept someone they didn´t vote for.
That´s not the case...
You won´t change your mind no matter how much evidence Trump demoralized the very idea of american democracy and hurt respect for the US in Europe. There is no point in debate.. you give the man free pass because he was elected.

[johnmdesigner]

No comment on the owner of the words only the words themselves which seem to ring true.

[edoz]

25 pages of this shit? Y'all muthafukkas need to go ride.

[jclay]

Fight gerrymandering and volunteer to get folks registered, or re-registered, as the case may be.
Georgia does not have to put 1, voters back on rolls, judge rules | US news | The Guardian

[Scott G.]

25 pages of this shit? Y'all muthafukkas need to go ride.

It's winter, time to help Lionel spend some more money.

Maybe a bike designed to pickup the Sunday paper and pastries ?

[Corso]

You make it sound like those who want Trump impeached are spoiled children who won´t accept someone they didn´t vote for.
That´s not the case...
You won´t change your mind no matter how much evidence Trump demoralized the very idea of american democracy and hurt respect for the US in Europe. There is no point in debate.. you give the man free pass because he was elected.

Colky,
How many celebs claimed they would move out of the USA if Trump won? How many did? Zero. Acting like children. Many have lost their minds over his win. Yes, that is the case. I have friends and family who are fn' fit to be tied. And they have been since day one. Before Trump was even sworn in.

Free pass? I've never stated or indicated as such. I'd like to see this President treated like the last President, everyone being judged by the same yardstick. That certainly has not been the case. And before the "senate was against Obama" chorus chimes in, yes, that happened, but nothing like this.

Why (again) the "change your mind" thing?

Now if you want me to change my VOTE, someone please offer up an alternative that I can get behind. Until I see that person (maybe Mayor Pete, hard NO on Warren or Biden), I'm behind my party and the President.

[Bob Ross]

I'd like to see this President treated like the last President, everyone being judged by the same yardstick.

And I'd like to see Trump behave even remotely as presidential as the last President...or the 43 that served before that one.

But how about this as a yardstick: Everyone gets treated the way they treat everyone else. That whole "do unto others" thing. Think yer boy could measure up? Think he hasn't earned the treatment you claim the left, the media, the Democrats, whomever, has heaped on him since before Day One if we used that yardstick to judge him?

[Sbti]

Orange Anus breaks the law again re: whistleblower. It seems he's really enjoying his vacation.

[theflashunc]

Orange Anus breaks the law again re: whistleblower. It seems he's really enjoying his vacation.

We're at the point where open intimidation of federal employees doesn't even register anymore.

[colker]

And I'd like to see Trump behave even remotely as presidential as the last President...or the 43 that served before that one.

But how about this as a yardstick: Everyone gets treated the way they treat everyone else. That whole "do unto others" thing. Think yer boy could measure up? Think he hasn't earned the treatment you claim the left, the media, the Democrats, whomever, has heaped on him since before Day One if we used that yardstick to judge him?

It´s not the left against Trump: this is a lie. This is a phallacy, a propaganda trick. It´s every single person who respects democratic institutions. Trump is anti true conservatism. Conservatives preserve institutions while Trump and others like Orban, Bolsonaro, Bannon, Salviatti, are anarchists engaged in demoralizing democratic institutions. They demoralize journalism when media/ press is as important as congress and justice. They demoralize globalism when it´s the very essence of capitalism. Globalism is the essence of christianity. There isn´t anything less christian than anti immigration: the christian idea is to include, evangelize, abolish frontiers. That´s how the european empires crossed the oceans.

[colker]

Colky,
How many celebs claimed they would move out of the USA if Trump won? How many did? Zero. Acting like children. Many have lost their minds over his win. Yes, that is the case. I have friends and family who are fn' fit to be tied. And they have been since day one. Before Trump was even sworn in.

Free pass? I've never stated or indicated as such. I'd like to see this President treated like the last President, everyone being judged by the same yardstick. That certainly has not been the case. And before the "senate was against Obama" chorus chimes in, yes, that happened, but nothing like this.

Why (again) the "change your mind" thing?

Now if you want me to change my VOTE, someone please offer up an alternative that I can get behind. Until I see that person (maybe Mayor Pete, hard NO on Warren or Biden), I'm behind my party and the President.

You are so wrong on so many levels. First, Trump crosses ethical borders since his campaign. I don´t think those celebrities acted like children... i believe they acted like patriots; human beings who would rather sacrifice a comfortable life than bear the shame of a president of the US who neglects the very foundation of the US: a search for happyness guided by science. Isn´t that what a modern non religious state is all about? Otoh despising and stepping on those who lost the battle is a bad mistake. Real bad. A good president immediately mends the abyss and governs for as much people as possible. Guys like Trump and the neo fascists who idolize him like Bolsonaro and co.. rejoice in stepping over those who didn´t vote for them. Bad mistake. If i were in your shoes i would step away from supporting him.. even if you like him because History runs fast.

[Corso]

Colker, if you were in my shoes you could actually vote in the US election, and choose to vote against him. But alas, my South American friend, you can't.

In fact, if "I were in your shoes"---I'd worry more about my own country than the United States of America. We'll be just fine.

So keep venting away if it makes you feel good.

[thollandpe]

Regarding the oft-repeated claim that because there were Democrats already talking about impeachment when he was inaugurated, it somehow invalidates the effort. It was logical and legitimate because he cheated to win the election.

The payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal were illegal, and Michael Cohen is doing time for it. Any lawyer would know it was illegal, the decision would be a) would they get caught, b) could they beat it in court, and c) how many people would care. On that last one, I'd have thought we would care, that the holder of our highest office should be held to the highest standard, especially when it comes to how they attained that office.

And whether or not one agrees that the Mueller Report lays out evidence that the campaign knowingly accepted foreign interference in the election, one should acknowledge the sheer number of people who have been indicted for lying to the investigators. Flynn, Stone, Gates, Papadopoulos, van der Zwaan, and Kilimnik. Manafort's crimes included witness tampering. Many were also busted for financial crimes associated with the campaign.

There's a lot of there there. So of course the push to investigate and impeach has always been there.

[colker]

Colker, if you were in my shoes you could actually vote in the US election, and choose to vote against him. But alas, my South American friend, you can't.

In fact, if "I were in your shoes"---I'd worry more about my own country than the United States of America. We'll be just fine.

So keep venting away if it makes you feel good.

I am worried about the neofascist rise everywhere supported enthusiastically by Trump. That´s why i have an opinion on your politics as much all the french, danish, germans, english, mexicans, canadians who worry about climate change and his anti science stance; anyone who is affected by his destructive policies wants him out of your office because it affects everywhere else. We live in a globalized world.
Oh yeah.. he was elected. Otoh he can be impeached and life goes on.

[sk_tle]

But he WON and is the PRESDIENT.

I think the biggest threat to a good democracy is people thinking and acting like it is a competition.

[HorsCat]

For shits and giggles, I re-read George Washington's farewell address. I believe he would be appalled by the current state of American democracy, in particular as it regards the GOP and its feckl...er...fearless coward of a leader. His prescience is impressive (emphasis in the quotes mine):


On the GOP’s subversion of democratic norms and processes:

“All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations under whatever plausible character with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction; to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common councils and modified by mutual interests. However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”

On the GOP’s hyper-factionalism:

“Let me now take a more comprehensive view and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally. This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but in those of the popular form it is seen in its greatest rankness and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation on the ruins of public liberty.
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and the duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it. It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.”


On foreign influence:

“Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of re- publican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to sur- render their interests.”