It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[Sbti]

And some goobers think he hasn't been impeached! Ha, ha, ha!

[mzilliox]

Another thing I don’t understand.

In a country with a special word for swearing, how is it Trump is not under pressure to stop lying?

It’s not like what he says doesn’t get fact checked. It’s not like facts are partisan. Why isn’t he being told “supporters love you except when you make stuff up. You need to stop doing that”

Why are supporters happy to overlook his making stuff up?

I don’t get it. But then I’m frequently profane.

because people dont care about right or wrong, they care about money and wining, the end.

[lumpy]

Biden is nearly as dirty as the Current Occupant

This is EXACTLY the narrative they are trying to get you to accept. That's where this whole effort to get Ukraine to announce an investigation was supposed to get you. They know people believe where there's smoke, there's fire, so they're just filling the room with smoke.

[caleb]

Another thing I don’t understand.

In a country with a special word for swearing, how is it Trump is not under pressure to stop lying?

It’s not like what he says doesn’t get fact checked. It’s not like facts are partisan. Why isn’t he being told “supporters love you except when you make stuff up. You need to stop doing that”

Why are supporters happy to overlook his making stuff up?

I don’t get it. But then I’m frequently profane.

This is, I think, a species of the single most important question in American society today: How can a society that sees itself as morally special elect and continue to support such a publicly and unapologetically immoral president?

It didn't used to be this way. Two generations ago Trump would have been unthinkable as a leader of any sort.

Folks like Emily Bazelon and Beverley Gage today are pinning the shift on party self-sorting and changes in media. Fair enough.

It's tempting to look at the secular establishment as a cause when it turns out that weekly church attendance hasn't much changed here since Watergate:



But if we look under the hood of American protestantism, "attending church" means getting a very different message today for people than it did pre-1970. Pre-1970, if you went to any church, you probably got a pretty similar message about charity, humility, service, and other moral issues. But with the rise of the health and wealth gospel, which equates morality with capitalistic success rather than conventional morality, the church fragmented into mainline and nondenominational strands, the latter of which became ground zero for for the new amoral morality. Those nondenominational churches and their evangelical allies set up shop in battleground political states like Ohio, Indiana, Virginia, Florida, and Arizona.



And so we've ended up with a perverted version of Christianity carrying outsize political influence because of its geographic location, almost as if someone sat down and designed a trojan horse for American religion drawn around the Electoral College.

Couple that dynamic with the rise of evangelical culture warriorism in the 80s and 90s that saw society as a battleground focused on results in this world rather than the next, and you have a good chunk of society that speaks a language of public morality but is willing to compromise whatever to achieve their version of success here and now. Meanwhile, the mainline protestants have shrunk and lost much of any ability to contest what it means to live morally, and the Catholics are fighting the clergy abuse scandal. That's an incomplete story, but it's at least an important part.

Tldr: health and wealth gospel, decline of mainline protestants, evangelical culture wars, Electoral College.

[Sbti]

On his way to Magat-Swampgas, the Chosen One, treated worse than jesus acknowledges, his exoneration from Puti.

“A total Witch Hunt!” the president tweeted at 10:30 p.m., as he shared a 36-hour-old Associated Press tweet that read: “BREAKING: Russian President Vladimir Putin says U.S. President Donald Trump’s impeachment is far-fetched and predicts the U.S. Senate will reject it.”

Just one word: Traitor. FFS

[colker]

I don't know if this is an attack on "The Media".

But I have the privilege to count several very well-respected print journalists among my friends. And I can tell you that they are very dedicated, and work constantly and diligently, to transmit the facts. They are often - no, usually - working to craft and transmit complicated and nuanced information on very tight deadlines. They do their best, and their jobs are difficult and stressful.

Politicians' attacks on these professionals are damaging to the fabric of our society.

I am not saying that all the people who we read or listen to work to the standards these people do. But I'm betting that most aspire to be the kinds of journalists my friends are.

And now you have millions of people who trust any BS on the What´s up groups rather than news. That´s how far right aholes get elected everywhere. Otoh there was a shift from centered social democracy to extreme politics mostly extreme right worldwide in mid 00s. It´s a huge turn.
Trump not only damages the US but supports unbearable politics in other places like Bolsonaro here in Brasil. Bolsonaro publicly supports people accused of torture during brazilian dictatorship. The level of violence and brutality in Brazil is rising. PLease.. get rid of Trump.

[King Of Dirk]

This is, I think, a species of the single most important question in American society today: How can a society that sees itself as morally special elect and continue to support such a publicly and unapologetically immoral president?

Very interesting post, Caleb. I share your opinion on the symptoms and the cause, but I'm clueless if there's a cure.

[caleb]

Very interesting post, Caleb. I share your opinion on the symptoms and the cause, but I'm clueless if there's a cure.

Really good question, and one I wonder about, too. It does feel like something's going to have to give soon, like we're seeing the last puff of post-war hyper-materialism burning off suddenly before the flame goes out. There is no going back, we've used it all up.

Worst case, this is really a story about local, national, and international inequality: the expectations of the many have been frustrated by the ability of the very top of society to concentrate the value of productive processes in their own hands. If we follow Thomas Piketty, the resolution where conventional politics fail is that violent conflict eventually burns everything down and we start again. I hope he's wrong.

Less bad, but still very bad case is that the rise of Trumpism is a story about how, as Emily Bazelon put it last week on Slate, that for the first time in modern history, a subset of the population (straight, white men without college degrees) that was born into the presumption of privilege is now being asked to inhabit a meritocracy where their social standing has no floor and the average is lower, and will continue to be lower. How do you ask a group of people to peacefully go into a future that is worse for them on the whole than the present, and much worse than both their real and idealized pasts? The only way out of such a situation that doesn't rely on squashing the ambitions of women, people of color, and immigrants would seem to be rapid, widespread growth that allows the meritocracy to normalize while not feeling like there's a zero sum game since everyone is materially better off in the short run. One could imagine a sort of enlightened Trumpism trying to make this work: we need to grow very rapidly so that society can reshuffle without people feeling threatened.

Best case, changing ideas can lead the way to material change. Michael Walzer's old study of Puritanism's rise might indicate that there's an enduring desire in humans for ascetic community. Maybe there's a modern version of voluntary, communal self-denial that takes hold, sort of like the Swedish movement not to fly, but on a society-wide level. With generational replacement, post-material values overtake material values, and we ultimately elevate those values to a sort of secularized public religion of material asceticism.

Those are the three options that jump to my mind anyway: war, rapid growth, or secular asceticism.

[mzilliox]

Really good question, and one I wonder about, too. It does feel like something's going to have to give soon, like we're seeing the last puff of post-war hyper-materialism burning off suddenly before the flame goes out. There is no going back, we've used it all up.

Worst case, this is really a story about local, national, and international inequality: the expectations of the many have been frustrated by the ability of the very top of society to concentrate the value of productive processes in their own hands. If we follow Thomas Piketty, the resolution where conventional politics fail is that violent conflict eventually burns everything down and we start again. I hope he's wrong.

Less bad, but still very bad case is that the rise of Trumpism is a story about how, as Emily Bazelon put it last week on Slate, that for the first time in modern history, a subset of the population (straight, white men without college degrees) that was born into the presumption of privilege is now being asked to inhabit a meritocracy where their social standing has no floor and the average is lower, and will continue to be lower. How do you ask a group of people to peacefully go into a future that is worse for them on the whole than the present, and much worse than both their real and idealized pasts? The only way out of such a situation that doesn't rely on squashing the ambitions of women, people of color, and immigrants would seem to be rapid, widespread growth that allows the meritocracy to normalize while not feeling like there's a zero sum game since everyone is materially better off in the short run. One could imagine a sort of enlightened Trumpism trying to make this work: we need to grow very rapidly so that society can reshuffle without people feeling threatened.

Best case, changing ideas can lead the way to material change. Michael Walzer's old study of Puritanism's rise might indicate that there's an enduring desire in humans for ascetic community. Maybe there's a modern version of voluntary, communal self-denial that takes hold, sort of like the Swedish movement not to fly, but on a society-wide level. With generational replacement, post-material values overtake material values, and we ultimately elevate those values to a sort of secularized public religion of material asceticism.

Those are the three options that jump to my mind anyway: war, rapid growth, or secular asceticism.

Or maybe social welfare will finally be realized to be the one thing we all share, and voters will then start voting for themselves instead of their fragile identity. its fascinating that this very group you mention takes more per capita welfare while providing less tax revenue, yet they vote consistently against their interest, for people who would remove the benefits and make any chance at successful life even smaller. why do they vote agianst their interests? why do they vote for people who would take food fomr the plates of their children?

this same group will make excuses, when the reality is they could take responisbility for themselves and go to schools, which are mainly free, cheap or subsidized for low income folk already (and could be more accessable with certain democratic politics), they could take advantage of a more liberal government policy and find their way up a social notch, but they dont, because their identity and perceptions wont allow it. they see a hispanic person in Arizona getting anything, and immediately they forget (willfully ignore) they are actually the "welfare queens" of the country and shout about how an "other" (a non white American) is getting something they deserve more.

so maybe schools and things could begin to teach us what it is we get from government and remind us of our minimal role. after all, in this day and age, citizenship has the lowest requirements with the highest rewards ever in the history of the USA. Maybe the least we could do is educate ourselves and engage in honest discourse about the goverment, what welfare we all receive (do you get tax breaks? gi bill? did your kid fill out a fafsa? does your company file taxes and get credits?) we fail to acnowledge how liberal politics help us all every day, and we forget there is no way to improve our lives without a good and functioning government willing to create programs which help every american (even the ex loggers here who can make more money on weed if they actually decided to work, and those fellers in kentucky who take government help and vote for small government and less help over and over while whining about a good ole day that ws actually worse than today.

the human mind is a fascinating thing, capable of convincing itself of most anything.

[HorsCat]

"It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force."

-- Hamilton in Federalist No. 1


232 years after that was penned, we may have our answer.

[BBB]

If being a buffoon was an impeachable offence, then Trump really would be in a sticky situation.

On wind farms (in a speech to young conservatives in Florida):

“I never understood wind. You know, I know windmills very much. They’re noisy. They kill the birds. You want to see a bird graveyard? Go under a windmill someday. You’ll see more birds than you’ve ever seen in your life.”

“They’re made in China and Germany mostly,” Trump said of wind turbines, of which there are more than 57,000 across the US, according to the American Wind Energy Association. “But they’re manufactured tremendous if you’re into this, tremendous fumes. Gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything.

“You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right? Spewing. Whether it’s in China, Germany, it’s going into the air. It’s our air, their air, everything, right?”

[mzilliox]

"It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force."

-- Hamilton in Federalist No. 1


232 years after that was penned, we may have our answer.

"toilet! toilet! toilet! toilet!"

[sk_tle]

And so we've ended up with a perverted version of Christianity carrying outsize political influence because of its geographic location, almost as if someone sat down and designed a trojan horse for American religion drawn around the Electoral College.

Christianity and religions in general have always been about lies and justifying violence and decisions around a fake canvas of morality and "good words" wrapped into the inherent fear of our own mortality.

I think you are reading waaay too much into it to justify a shift in the way people can support this president.

I think the true reality is that people are overloaded with data and news. On one hand we get immediate live reports from all the crappy things that happen in this world, and from the prism of social medias we are thrown in the face a fake vision of what we perceive what a great life could be. From this people get an high feeling of insecurity and the sense that they don't live their life as fully as they should, that their life is not nearly as good as the one they believe they witness from "influencers" or even some friends. The result ---> fear of the future, a whole lot of frustration and hatred from anything that prevent them to live as they think they should. People then end up supporting leaders that will point to a designated culprit with simple words. They are willing to to support them as long as said leader will not tell them that the change doesn't have to come from themselves. Because change is insecurity.

Donald Trump does just that. He points at culprits like chinese, islam, strangers in general while dismissing anything, for instance environmental issues, that would make people feel they need evolve. This is comforting. And for comfort pro-trump people are willing to embrace and promote lies, racism, gender violence or even pedophilia.

[Blue Jays]

"...And for comfort pro-trump people are willing to embrace and promote lies, racism, gender violence or even pedophilia..."

Or, they might be your family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
Just decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious people who have a different approach to making the country great.
Embrace the diversity of living with others who might have a different viewpoint.

[HorsCat]

That Trump is (in no particular order):

A racist
A rapist
A misogynist
Evil (definition: “profoundly immoral and wicked”)
A malignant narcissist
A criminal
Corrupt to his core
Indifferent to the suffering of others
A liar
An ignoramus
A fraudulent huckster
Etc

Is not a matter of “differing viewpoints” but is instead objective fact.

In defending him one is defending the indefensible. I have friends, family members, colleagues who support him. I know some very smart people who support him. I do not have a framework for understanding or explaining it. Sorry to say, but at this point, defense of Trump says something about one’s personal character.

[sk_tle]

Or, they might be your family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
Just decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious people who have a different approach to making the country great.
Embrace the diversity of living with others who might have a different viewpoint.

Regardless of your viewpoint or the fact you could be a friend, coworker or from the family, if you support trump you support his ideas. That's up to you to decide if you can live with that. We all have that racist uncle or even worse we are ashamed of.

[mzilliox]

How do decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious people support a man who is none of those things? I have to wonder at this. a man who lies often and without any real reason. a man who cheats, steals, has made himself a victim of nothing, a man who is false in every way, a reality TV moron. this is the man you say brings diverse ideas? his ideas are old and tired, not diverse. they are the ideas of a balthering old rich man. they are the ideas of an uneducated fool. this is not a difference of opinions, all civilized humans have decided cheating, lying, stealing are wrong. this isnt something open to debate. this isnt a neoliberal philosophy. its just bad behavior.

there is the disconnect for us all bluejay, so please share with us how these decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious people support what Trump supports while still being honorable? then you have these wannabe charlatans playing at christianity bowing over for the handouts. wonder why they sell their morality to trump when they have God and Faith on their side.

at least one decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious leading christian publication has denounced him and his competely dishonorable ways, and more conservative editors are joining in. how refreshing to find out people can put their team and bias aside long enough to learn something new, maybe even have their mind changed.

[guido]

then you have these wannabe charlatans playing at christianity bowing over for the handouts. wonder why they sell their morality to trump when they have God and Faith on their side.

Their reason can be summed up in two words: Anti-abortion Judges.

[mzilliox]

Or, they might be your family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
Just decent, engaging, honorable, and gracious people who have a different approach to making the country great.
Embrace the diversity of living with others who might have a different viewpoint.

i know what this concept makes me think of now...
a bit of good ole George Orwell
"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word—doublethink—involved the use of doublethink."

[Blue Jays]

My cycling club is predominantly center-right or centrist for the overwhelming beliefs of most riders.
The handful of far-right seems accept the far-left riders much better than the far-left accept the far-right riders.

While preaching tolerance, inclusion, and diversity these sentiments are not typically shared with riders who support President Trump.
How would y'all extend friendship and welcome to a rider unloading his/her bicycle out of a vehicle with a TRUMP 2020 bumpersticker?