It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[davids]

It was unfair when it was done to Clinton, and it's unfair now when it being done to Trump. I'd like to see an end to the wild fishing expeditions and the endless politically motivated investigations. I don't think impeachment was meant to be about blowjobs or subjective interpretations of a phone call.

I disagree.

I think that the matter resulting in Clinton's impeachment was overblown (rimshot!) but yes, he did lie to Congress. That's bad. And I'm happy with the outcome of that proceeding - an impeachment but no conviction. His behavior did not warrant removal from his office.

I do not think the matter Congress is currently deliberating is overblown. Trump withheld assistance aid (aid allocated in support of our country's foreign policy objectives) to pressure a foreign nation into digging up (thoroughly discredited) political dirt on a personal political rival. The pressure was applied through the US Diplomatic Corps (members of which were dismissed when they failed to get with Trump's program) and non-governmental US nationals working for Trump. The "phone call" was only one of a series of actions directed at forcing Ukraine to support Trump's false narrative about Biden. Soliciting foreign interference in domestic politics is an impeachable offense. Extorting a foreign government to interfere in domestic politics is an impeachable offense. I fully believe Trump should be impeached and I also think he should be convicted and removed from office.

But I do not think that will happen. The Majority Leader has already baldly stated that he is coordinating with the Trump administration around the proceedings, which seems to be an anticipatory violation of the oath senators will take before the impeachment proceedings. I will be stunned if there is a serious trial in the Senate.

All of the president's other horrible behavior (his tweets are just one cache of the permanent record he's leaving in his wake) are immaterial to the impeachment proceedings. I find his behavior predictably, exhaustingly loathsome and I mourn for a nation that sees anything to admire in his daily behavior. I feel he's unqualified to lead a Boy Scout troop, let alone the most powerful nation in the history of the world. But those are not impeachable offenses and they should rightfully be addressed at the ballot box.

[davids]

Have you actually read the declassified transcript of the call? I have. I'll attach it to this post.

For those of you that haven't read it, question yourself honestly as to why you have such strong opinions on something you haven't read.



Attachment 114186

Glenn,

You know there's more than the phone call, don't you?

[HorsCat]

Have you actually read the declassified transcript of the call? I have. I'll attach it to this post.

For those of you that haven't read it, question yourself honestly as to why you have such strong opinions on something you haven't read.



https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf

That transcript is but one brick in a wall of bribery, extortion and unequivocal corruption. Trump's hands are too small to build a wall separating us from Mexico, but he did a bang up job with Ukraine.

[mzilliox]

I think there is very little doubt that Trump will win the next election. Not enough has changed in terms of his core support, and among the wealthy in this country, there is too much to gain from having Trump in office financially. The only states where wealthy people are doing less well are states where Democrat majority is assured, and the Democrats don't have a solid foothold in enough tipping point Electoral College states. I am pretty sure that the economy will tank in the second or third year of his second term, because that's been about when the economy has tanked for every Republican President after Nixon. No one cares right now about his inability to conclude trade negotiations with China, because he's shown a willingness to bail out the parties most affected by the drawn out period of tariffs and rhetoric. The aid to farmers under Trump has now exceeded that spent on the auto bailouts after 2008. Not that these bailouts are a bad thing, but my sense is that this is just a delay of the inevitable - an increase in the rate of farm bankruptcies over the next five years if real signed and sealed trade agreements are not reached with China and Canada (dairy farmers especially for Canada.)

New NAFTA has not been ratified by Canada or the US and the recent agreement with China was provisional and basically what China offered to the US from the get-go of hostilities.

Look at England. Labor had a made to order opportunity for victory and they squandered the fck out of it by saying they had no opinion on Brexit and putting up a nightmare candidate in Corbyn. Conservatives couldn't get anything done, and people held their noses and voted for Johnson because they were tired of the stupid Labor party doing stupid things. I think there are going to be a certain number of people in the swing states here in the US who are going to vote against the Democrats' drive to impeach because they see it not from a right versus wrong perspective but from a do-they-get-it-are-they-actually-listening-no-they-are-not perspective.

However, I think that arguing that somehow now that Democrats are being unfair to Republicans and Trump when it is what Republicans have been doing for years to Democrats is stupid. It's called politics. Bare knuckle power struggle. Trump had the executive branch and both houses of government and couldn't get anything done because he and his assorted amateur advisors insisted on repeatedly testing the Constitution. In a parliamentary system, now he would be locked in a coalition government. Perhaps most of the last several Presidents would have at least in their second term had to create some sort of coalition government if we had a parliamentary system. But instead, we have Congress. The Executive Branch gets the accelerator, and Congress gets the brakes. The Supreme Court has the gas money, except it feels like right now the car of state is a Prius.

But I really think arguing whether a bike forum is providing fair and balanced discussion of politics is a waste of time and hardly the sort of thing this time of year needs more of. No one is out taking photos of their bikes and posting them to the gallery section, no one is out buying widgets and doohickeys to put on the 3-4" space between the bar wrap ends on their handlebars, no one is rewatching the CX World Cup races from 1993 and evaluating the quality of the mud - the list goes on. Go get on the trainer, go outside, go support the cycling economy (I bought a balance bike today at 50% off for our neighbor's kid!) go for a walk a hike a breath of fresh air or some sort of bottle facsimile thereof.....

I am now going to go to Home Depot and get some lightbulbs and a bag of lint-free rags (which somehow never seem quite lint free.)

You are right, nothing will be solved here, no minds will be changed as a massive amount of information has already been shared, and no ground has moved. Opinions remain largely unchanged, people will still most often vote for what they think is their own interest, or in a way that represents the way they see things, not the way things can be seen, or might be seen by others. despite the exchange of ideas, words, experiences, the majority will not see anything worthy of changing their own minds. i am fired up by the lack of honesty and lack of ability to talk philosophically about ideas without injecting politic and left/right dichotomy, its boring as hell. And i should be, these ideas are worth a fight, even among fellow cyclist. but also i should be enjoying this time of year and spreading love and cheer.

here's a picture of my new bicycle, which is pretty badass so far. im going to ride it on as many public lands as i can before they are taken from us by those who think privatization is so cool.
[IMG]Donkey day by Matt.zilliox, on Flickr[/IMG]

rodeolabs traildonkey 2.1, 2x ultegra with 46-36 and 11-36. 650b rock n road tires. building it into my flyfishing bike in the next couple weeks.

have to get outdoors as much as possible before roughly 40% of the population votes to sell them to the highest bidder, restricting our access and killing more of our remaining fish, wildlife and polluting our rivers to supposedly benefit our pal Economy Jobs.

its an impeachment thread, it couldnt be too rosy of a post. now im gonna go affix a rear rack to this thing and mock up some rod rack options. later v salon, its been real. break time though, im going mad

[theflashunc]

I think there is very little doubt that Trump will win the next election. Not enough has changed in terms of his core support, and among the wealthy in this country, there is too much to gain from having Trump in office financially. The only states where wealthy people are doing less well are states where Democrat majority is assured, and the Democrats don't have a solid foothold in enough tipping point Electoral College states.

While I agree he can certainly win again, all the evidence we have since 2016 indicates a motivated and engaged opposition to Trump and the GOP. A tidal shift in House seats alone, shifting of state legislatures and other changes that indicate Trump has a solid base, but losing those independent and swing voters in droves given the last three years. He certainly hasn't widened his appeal, and districts he won in 2016 by double digits GOP candidates are losing outright. The shift in the polling and results has been dramatic.

It's not a mountain of data points, but on the continuum of "resounding defeat" versus "Trump cruises to reelection" I'm leaning much more towards the former. Yes, much of this depends on his opponent, but there won't be a shortage of ABT voters.

[mzilliox]

Have you actually read the declassified transcript of the call? I have. I'll attach it to this post.

For those of you that haven't read it, question yourself honestly as to why you have such strong opinions on something you haven't read.



https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf

yes, of course i have. its been everywhere, its not a secret. can you read the sentence at the top of 3? then i especially like the part where trump says, "well, she is going to go through some things", it sounds so perfect

[zachateseverything]

Corso,

Go easy my friend. These folks' world view is crumbling.

You're going to have to substantiate that a bit boss. I know you never do, but at least try to put some effort in.

[theflashunc]

Have you actually read the declassified transcript of the call? I have. I'll attach it to this post.

For those of you that haven't read it, question yourself honestly as to why you have such strong opinions on something you haven't read.



https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf

"I would like you to do us a favor though..." The annotated version: I (Donald Trump) would you (President of Ukraine) to do us (Trump, Guiliani, Barr and the Trump campaign) a favor though (here's what I need for continued support).

After talking about the missiles that were sent along and holding the possibility of a public White House visit over the head of a guy fighting an active war against Russia where he desperately needs US support and assistance. This is plainly leveraging the office and the position for personal political gain.

And this is the transcript these geniuses released because they thought is was exculpatory somehow. I wonder what's on the other calls. Or the 1:1s with Putin where notes were destroyed. It just casts doubt over every interaction the man has had while in the job. Is he representing the American people, or himself and his own political position and power?

[HorsCat]

And this is the transcript these geniuses released because they thought is was exculpatory somehow. I wonder what's on the other calls. Or the 1:1s with Putin where notes were destroyed. It just casts doubt over every interaction the man has had while in the job. Is he representing the American people, or himself and his own political position and power?

Yep, and . . . Donald Trump has never represented anyone other than himself in anything he has ever done in his whole life. Ever. To quote the great Sir Larry, "not only would [Trump] sell his mother, he'd send her COD." The notion that he gives a shit about his base, the country, the flag or the Constitution is laughable. Heck, the guy would probably fuck his oldest daughter if he could get away with it, and watch his sons go to prison if it meant saving his own sorry ass.

And "transcript" is a bit of misnomer. The "transcript" is in fact a "memcon," or memorandum of conversation, which represents the collective notes and recollections of note takers. It is not a word for word transcript. I would submit that if we got an actual verbatim, no redactions "transcript," there would be even less doubt than there is now that what went on was bribery and extortion, pure and simple.

[Dallas Tex]

You're going to have to substantiate that a bit boss. I know you never do, but at least try to put some effort in.

since you asked........Things haven't been going y'alls way for a while:

- All but promised HRC would be your president, trumps your president
- trump won 29% of the hispanic vote and 8% of the black vote. That will most likely expand in 2020.
- stormy daniels sex scandal. Went nowhere
- 'trumps a secret russian agent', make believe no one bought it
- Mueller report, the culmination of the 'russian double agent' thing. High ranking dems promised 'mountains' of facts. 3 years of investigation, fizzled into nothing.
- Ukraine! Dems seamlessly shifted from the failed russia thing into the Ukraine thing. trump released the transcript himself!
- endless talk of 'bribery' and 'quid pro quo' and criminality. Tons of witnesses testifying to their opinions. In the final product no mention of bribery, or quid-pro-quo, no crime mentioned that I can see. End result is thin at best.
- impeachment will have more of a negative effect on dems than trump
- All the talk right after 2016 the election. trump will destroy the economy and start world war 3. Seems the opposite has come to fruition.
- in 2016 trump won with zero track record and never having held elected office. In 2020 he brings all the fun that is trump, plus a stellar record. Anything can happen, but its quite unlikely trump won't win 2020.

The genie is out of the bottle. The age of a ruling political class has ended. we've seen a lifetime of career politicians that behave well, give good talk, but accomplish very little. Disruption is now the standard, and its came from the bottom.

[j44ke]

Fleece down jackets! Whoddahthunkit?

[mjbabcock]

Regardless of party, if you really want a smile, watch this!

[Cookietruck]

- endless talk of 'bribery' and 'quid pro quo' and criminality. Tons of witnesses testifying to their opinions. In the final product no mention of bribery, or quid-pro-quo, no crime mentioned that I can see. End result is thin at best.

did you miss the Sondland testimony? I believe others also back this up...

"I know that members of this committee frequently frame these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a quid pro quo?" Sondland said. "As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and the White House meeting, the answer is yes."
Sondland later said, "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret."

[zachateseverything]

since you asked........Things haven't been going y'alls way for a while:

- All but promised HRC would be your president, trumps your president
- trump won 29% of the hispanic vote and 8% of the black vote. That will most likely expand in 2020.
- stormy daniels sex scandal. Went nowhere
- 'trumps a secret russian agent', make believe no one bought it
- Mueller report, the culmination of the 'russian double agent' thing. High ranking dems promised 'mountains' of facts. 3 years of investigation, fizzled into nothing.
- Ukraine! Dems seamlessly shifted from the failed russia thing into the Ukraine thing. trump released the transcript himself!
- endless talk of 'bribery' and 'quid pro quo' and criminality. Tons of witnesses testifying to their opinions. In the final product no mention of bribery, or quid-pro-quo, no crime mentioned that I can see. End result is thin at best.
- impeachment will have more of a negative effect on dems than trump
- All the talk right after 2016 the election. trump will destroy the economy and start world war 3. Seems the opposite has come to fruition.
- in 2016 trump won with zero track record and never having held elected office. In 2020 he brings all the fun that is trump, plus a stellar record. Anything can happen, but its quite unlikely trump won't win 2020.

The genie is out of the bottle. The age of a ruling political class has ended. we've seen a lifetime of career politicians that behave well, give good talk, but accomplish very little. Disruption is now the standard, and its came from the bottom.

Do you watch something other than fox news?

[HorsCat]

did you miss the Sondland testimony? I believe others also back this up...

"I know that members of this committee frequently frame these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a quid pro quo?" Sondland said. "As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and the White House meeting, the answer is yes."
Sondland later said, "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret."

Facts don't matter to this bunch. They like the lies, they like the mendacity, some of them like the extra moola, some of them dig the conservative judiciary that will strip women of their freedom, deny gays their essential selves, and give corporations and monied interests more power to exploit, many of them like stigginit, and most of them can't see the proverbial forest for the trees. 1984, here we are.

[Dallas Tex]

Do you watch something other than fox news?

I don’t watch much tv news, other than the ‘meet the press‘ type shows on Sunday.

Your post is a quip, not a response or valid argument.

[theflashunc]

- trump won 29% of the hispanic vote and 8% of the black vote. That will most likely expand in 2020.

Ah yes, when you're putting Latin and Central Americans in cages all along the border, that's totally a way to win over the Hispanic vote. Clearly some next level thinking here.

FWIW at least, that percentage of the African American vote is beyond what HW Bush and other GOP Presidents have garnered, and given the President's intransigent approval rating -- the rolling average has shifted about one percentage point in aggregate over the last three years between 40 and 41 percent -- it is unlikely he's picking up any new voters anywhere.

[Ras72]

- stormy daniels sex scandal. Went nowhere

This speaks volumes... Lets not dispute the fact he had extramarital affairs. Clearly facts show he did - not to mention a long list of shitty things he's done.
Lets not ask if it's right or wrong and judge the man's character (as any sane person would do) but lets ask, 'does this hurt his reputation?' If the answer is no, then I'm good with it.

F'cking crazy to me. Brainwashed, cult level crazy...

[Dallas Tex]

This speaks volumes... Lets not dispute the fact he had extramarital affairs. Clearly facts show he did - not to mention a long list of shitty things he's done.
Lets not ask if it's right or wrong and judge the man's character (as any sane person would do) but lets ask, 'does this hurt his reputation?' If the answer is no, then I'm good with it.

F'cking crazy to me. Brainwashed, cult level crazy...

You missed the point completely. Go reread it in context it may help you understand. No one cares if he had an affair. He’s the leader of the effing free world. He’s not a kindergarten teacher.

The Dems unsuccessfully tried to use that against him. That was the obvious point.

[Ras72]

No one cares if he had an affair.

My point exactly.
Sad we don't care enough.
Especially troubling to support a person that did.
Thanks for understanding my point.