We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

[bigbill]

If a "good guy with a gun" is running towards a shooting, that person is not within the bounds of the law (self defense), and might compound the situation. Concealed or open carry is to defend yourself and others if you feel your life is being threatened. If you seek out a shooter in a public setting, you're not defending yourself. If it's on your property and presents a threat to your loved ones, then the use is justified. The largest content of concealed carry classes is the legal aspects of using your gun, not how well you can shoot.

I live in the wild west of Kingman, AZ. I'll admit to occasionally carrying my single stack 40 cal. Like Dustin, I try to avoid places where I feel like I should carry. I don't feel threatened at home, I live in a nice area with large lots and neighbors who are at home most of the time, but there are places in town where I'd never live. I went to Walmart to look at slow cookers two evenings ago and I saw more than a dozen people open carrying (perfectly legal in AZ) in the store. There were likely just as many with concealed carry. People feel the need. I have to local news on my FB feed and the reported shootings almost always involve drugs, mostly meth. There are places in the US where a person with a pistol on their hip would cause a panic, but this country isn't a homogeneous population and there are places where it wouldn't get a second glance.

[sk_tle]

He doesn't carry his pistol everywhere he goes, he doesn't have a closet full of guns, he's not a right winger, not an NRA member, etc. I didn't know he even owned a gun. No telling whether that dude would have tried to get into the house, but if he had he'd have found a postpartum woman and an ~8 week old baby - two very helpless victims.

I hear you but what if that crackhead had found the gun before your friend ? The outcome might have been a tad more dramatic. I'm pretty sure he locks his guns in a supposedly safe place but when people manage to break into houses, they can also break into many things like closets, drawers, whatever.

[sk_tle]

If a "good guy with a gun" is running towards a shooting, that person is not within the bounds of the law (self defense)

Add to that the "good guy" might end up shot by the law enforcement by mistake. They hear there is a shooting, they find someone with a gun at hand. They might shoot way before he has time to drop the weapon and explain the situation, or the police could lose precious time or even suffer incoming shots from the real threat while they are trying to assert the situation.

[dgaddis]

I hear you but what if that crackhead had found the gun before your friend ? The outcome might have been a tad more dramatic. I'm pretty sure he locks his guns in a supposedly safe place but when people manage to break into houses, they can also break into many things like closets, drawers, whatever.

What if the crackhead was already carrying a gun?

"What if" is a game you could play forever.

[dgaddis]

Add to that the "good guy" might end up shot by the law enforcement by mistake. They hear there is a shooting, they find someone with a gun at hand. They might shoot way faster than they ought to.

Agree 100%. The guy running towards the shooting isn't a smart choice IMO. But I also understand wanting to help. But I also think he might shoot the wrong person. There's a lot of ways that situation could go sideways, err, well, you know, more sideways than it already was.

[sk_tle]

Like two "good guys" confusing each other for the bad one. There is a reason law enforcement wear uniforms and use recognisable cars.

[sk_tle]

What if the crackhead was already carrying a gun?

"What if" is a game you could play forever.

What I mean is guns are made to kill and are very efficient at that. The more there are guns the more the odds. Also many weapons are used agains their owner or members of their family, by accident, threat or more often than not the good guy ending up crazy and murdering his whole family because his couple is in a bad shape.

I'd like to be able to say my best friends, or even I, are not capable of this. Same probably for your friend. Can we be certain of that ? The thing is we are still clueless about the chemicals that happens into ones brain and makes him become a murderer. Most of them have been described as good people before all that family murdering thing happened.

[sine]

edit

Very true. But they're also great for defending yourself and your family against the nutters.

In other parts of the world people manage to deal with sticky situations without a pistol or shotgun or civilian AR15.

Listen, we know what needs to be done.......NOW. After Sandyhook I thought maybe......but no. Sadly, I still don't think the USA is ready yet.

[thollandpe]

Let’s take action on guns. The NRA has prevented any and all action, and I believe they have lost all credibility (after Sandy Hook, after Mr. Lapierre’s spending and wardrobe habits, after Russian infiltration, after Mr. Lapierre’s mansion?). Action, in the form of better laws, is certainly an option.

I also believe we have a problem with young white men in this country, and the targeting of women. Despite the efforts of the current administration to convince us the danger is elsewhere. After they shut down the government to try and point to immigrants as the biggest threat to our safety as a nation, I wrote this. If updated with events from the last few months and weeks, it would be even more horrific with the addition of racist and religiously-motivated killings.

Our President tells the horrific story of four women abducted and taken across the border, their mouths duct-taped shut. But this is not the story of the US Border Patrol agent who killed four women, after he put them in his truck, shot them in the head, and dumped them on the roadside. He was caught because another potential victim escaped. The President’s story is unverifiable, fake news, but the border guard has been indicted. Real news.

Because all of this about the wall, which is supposed to provide safety for the US, and protect women and children... but it’s a distraction. A manufactured crisis. A wall of bullshit.

During the shutdown the FBI foiled a plot by four young white men to attack a town with guns and homemade bombs. IED’s built with nails and duct tape. Homegrown terrorists from upstate New York plotting to attack and kill people because they have a different religion.

In Florida another young white man walked into a bank and shot five people. Killed all five. Five women. Only women. He targeted women.

In Louisiana another young white man shot and killed a woman he had been dating, and then shot her brother, and her grandfather. After that he drove to his parents’ house where he shot and killed them both.

In Pennsylvania a young white man (seeing a pattern yet?) shot and killed a woman (seeing a pattern yet?) in a bar, and also shot and killed a man and his son who tried to intervene. He fled, crashed his car, and broke into a house where he shot and killed one of the elderly owners. The other escaped harm by hiding in the bathroom and calling 911.

Those last four incidents happened during the shutdown. Two of those incidents affected people who post on this forum. Seven young white perpetrators who did not sneak in over our southern border.

We can make our country a better place. Let’s begin by not making it worse. I’ve had enough of the unending and deliberately divisive, always confrontational, self-serving, unpresidential, and downright dangerous stream of consciousness that is the Twitter feed of “at real donald trump”.

TH

[bigbill]

edit



In other parts of the world people manage to deal with sticky situations without a pistol or shotgun or civilian AR15.

Listen, we know what needs to be done.......NOW. After Sandyhook I thought maybe......but no. Sadly, I still don't think the USA is ready yet.

I've lived in other cultures and when it comes to crime or people defending themselves without guns, you have to consider their societal norms. I live in Sardinia and while there were local police, most people had the understanding that they were corrupt. The national police force, the Carabinieri was not corrupt and was very visible at all times. They also carried submachine guns and didn't have a strict set of rules with regards to arresting people. While I lived there, the Carabinieri was conducting a roadblock operation checking licenses, searching cars (no warrant needed), patting down folks, etc. A car drove past the roadblock almost hitting an officer. The driver and everyone in the car died in a hail of gunfire. Now imagine if that happened in the US. We have our freedoms that others don't, we're dealing with the consequences of those freedoms. It's a tough problem to solve.

And btw, all AR's (Armalite Rifle Company) are civilian. The military doesn't use them. My kid spent the summer carrying an M-4 which selects between single and rapid fire, can't buy that in a store.

[mzilliox]

i dont own a gun, i make fun of people who do, i take every opportunity to point out how uncivilized humans are who feel the need for a gun. wtf else can i do? who are you vigilantes ready to blast a fool for breaking into your house? what are the odds of this happening? what are you actually doing? what if his gun is bigger and hes faster? why not buy a lotto ticket every day if you feel this way about probability? this country is full of assholes and selfish pricks. we are taught how special and individual we are, so we act accordingly. when the world is yours, why follow the rules?

[dgaddis]

i dont own a gun, i make fun of people who do, i take every opportunity to point out how uncivilized humans are who feel the need for a gun. wtf else can i do? who are you vigilantes ready to blast a fool for breaking into your house? what are the odds of this happening? what are you actually doing? what if his gun is bigger and hes faster? why not buy a lotto ticket every day if you feel this way about probability? this country is full of assholes and selfish pricks. we are taught how special and individual we are, so we act accordingly. when the world is yours, why follow the rules?

You do realize that your last point is exactly the same reason so many people own guns, right?

As for the chance of someone breaking into your house, well that totally depends on where you live. In my county the burglary + robbery crime rate in 2017 per 100,000 is 1,359. (source ; I couldn't find a rate of home invasions) If I had as good a chance of winning the lottery as having some selfish asshole break into my house, I'd buy a ticket every day!

*Again, most of the crime in my town is in concentrated in certain areas. Same as any town I reckon.

[jclay]

It's real simple; either we remove autos and semi-autos from the civilian population or we'll continue to have mass shootings. The sooner we begin that journey the sooner we'll get to the imperfect but vastly better end. Thanks to a Congress that allowed the assault weapon ban to expire, rather than strengthening it, it will be a long, long journey requiring lots of carrots and sticks.

If you think the cost in human life is worth it to assuage your personal fearfulness then at least have the strength of character to say so. But please don't be fool enough to think that anything short of removing those sorts of weapons from the population will amount to a tinkers damn.

My MOCs know how I feel though they couldn't care less; I'll support any candidate who wants serious firearms control including repeal or serious reinterpretation of the 2nd.

A great country and a great people don't allow these sorts of tragedies to continue when remedies are available.

More generally, and I don't mean to be offensive nor will I get into an internet back/forth on this, but if at this point you support Trump then I really don't want to know you. You can lean conservative, hell, I'd vote for Nixon in a heartbeat (the last of the New Deal Democrats), but as far as I'm concerned supporting Trump at this point is like supporting cancer; societal cancer.

[sine]

edit

I'll support any candidate who wants serious firearms control including repeal or serious reinterpretation of the 2nd.

Anyone out there?

bigbill. I'm from other countries. I'm fairly aware of differences between a few countries and the USA.

If anyone cares, here is an interesting article on how two similar countries diverged when it comes to gun ownership.

Good Guys and Bad Guys with Guns: Gun Control in Canada and the U.S. | Origins: Current Events in Historical Perspective

[mzilliox]

It's real simple; either we remove autos and semi-autos from the civilian population or we'll continue to have mass shootings. The sooner we begin that journey the sooner we'll get to the imperfect but vastly better end. Thanks to a Congress that allowed the assault weapon ban to expire, rather than strengthening it, it will be a long, long journey requiring lots of carrots and sticks.

If you think the cost in human life is worth it to assuage your personal fearfulness then at least have the strength of character to say so. But please don't be fool enough to think that anything short of removing those sorts of weapons from the population will amount to a tinkers damn.

love the line about human life vs personal fearfulness. we are supposedly civilized right? the greatest country ever? then wtf is everyone so afraid of? the truth?

[mzilliox]

You do realize that your last point is exactly the same reason so many people own guns, right?

As for the chance of someone breaking into your house, well that totally depends on where you live. In my county the burglary + robbery crime rate in 2017 per 100,000 is 1,359. (source ; I couldn't find a rate of home invasions) If I had as good a chance of winning the lottery as having some selfish asshole break into my house, I'd buy a ticket every day!

*Again, most of the crime in my town is in concentrated in certain areas. Same as any town I reckon.

the reason so many people own guns is because they can and they enjoy shooting them, the end. i do not believe for one minute that the average gun owner has any ability or intention to shoot someone, i think its fantasy. a gruesome and weird fantasy

[bigbill]

It's real simple; either we remove autos and semi-autos from the civilian population or we'll continue to have mass shootings. The sooner we begin that journey the sooner we'll get to the imperfect but vastly better end. Thanks to a Congress that allowed the assault weapon ban to expire, rather than strengthening it, it will be a long, long journey requiring lots of carrots and sticks.

Civilians can't buy automatic weapons without a costly and difficult to obtain license. None of the mass shootings in the US in the past decades have used a machine gun which is what an automatic weapon is. Most of the guns in circulation are semi-automatic, they fire one round for each pull of the trigger. The type of weapon used is what was available. Make semi-automatic weapons illegal, then they'll use revolvers or pump action rifles/shotguns. But we've never been able to convince mass shooters to obey the law anyway, murder is always illegal, so how do we convince those folks to use a weapon with a slightly slower rate of fire?

[Scott G.]

And btw, all AR's (Armalite Rifle Company) are civilian. The military doesn't use them. My kid spent the summer carrying an M-4 which selects between single and rapid fire, can't buy that in a store.

With a Class 3 firearms license you can own automatic weapons.
Don't know if you can buy an M4, but there is large selection of similar and more powerful ones on offer.
Local club even has special area for full auto practice.
The NRA didn't oppose the 1934 act that restricted the ownership of automatic weapons.

[bigbill]

With a Class 3 firearms license you can own automatic weapons.
Don't know if you can buy an M4, but there is large selection of similar and more powerful ones on offer.
Local club even has special area for full auto practice.
The NRA didn't oppose the 1934 act that restricted the ownership of automatic weapons.

That's what I said in the post above yours. It is an expensive and difficult to obtain license. Tightly controlled. Are these automatic weapons being used in crimes or mass shootings? No. There's a range here where you can shoot full auto, either your own or rent one. But people who own those weapons represent the responsible ownership folks. But all of this conflates the subject of gun control. When folks through around words like "automatic weapons" as if they're the gun being used in shootings, it's just a display of ignorance of what actually exists and serves no purpose. If there was a ban or special license required for semi-automatic weapons, then the responsible gun owners would turn them in or obtain a license. The criminals and domestic terrorists don't really care, they have nothing to lose by keeping them.

[jclay]

Civilians can't buy automatic weapons without a costly and difficult to obtain license. None of the mass shootings in the US in the past decades have used a machine gun which is what an automatic weapon is. Most of the guns in circulation are semi-automatic, they fire one round for each pull of the trigger. The type of weapon used is what was available. Make semi-automatic weapons illegal, then they'll use revolvers or pump action rifles/shotguns. But we've never been able to convince mass shooters to obey the law anyway, murder is always illegal, so how do we convince those folks to use a weapon with a slightly slower rate of fire?

Civilians can buy full auto with a Class III permit; I included it for the sake of completeness. And unless you're Jerry Miculik wheelguns and pump shotguns can't come close to killing people as rapidly as a semi and even then Jerry's finger trigger would probably get tired after a few reloads.

It's a question of convincing society of the necessity, making it too painful to possess them and/or too attractive to get rid of them, and realizing that this is a decades long project and that while 100% compliance is unattainable we can make things vastly better. How many more mass shootings it will take to generate the necessary groundswell of public opinion I have no idea. One woulda thought Sandy Hook would do it; guess not. But I figure there must be a number and we just haven't gotten there yet.

I grew up on the ranges at MCAS Cherry Point and NAS P'cola. Ignorant of firearms I am not.