We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

[Matthew Strongin]

Okay, this is no place for hyperbole. Fair enough. Based on the Tribune and Wikipedia's data, it seems Chicago's fatal shootings in 2019 are only slightly outpacing the number of mass-shooting fatalities in 2019. 297 - 248.

Does this not at least partially make the case that my high-capacity magazine ban proposal would be largely useless? Chicago is as effective with the ones and twos as the nutcases are with their Rambo-clones. It seems all or nothing, in that light.

But it shouldn't be all or nothing. We can, and should, attack this problem from multiple angles. Both the symptoms and the root cause. Regulating high-capacity magazines would be a positive move, many believe. We should also do more to address the alienation, despair, anger, etc*. that drives people (men, as you've called out and rightly so) to want to harm others. Note how I'm not calling out mass shooters alone. I'm a data-driven person. The ones and twos are the lion's share and should be the primary focus. But that doesn't mean that we also shouldn't try to prevent nutcases from going ballistic.

[King Of Dirk]

Fortunately, the DOJ redefined bump stock modified guns as machine guns which are already illegal under current statutes. Several gun rights groups have filed lawsuits against the 'new' definition and I do not think these have run there course through the courts.

If we require congress to pass a law and send it to DJT, it will not happen. Whether DJT wants to do something or not, it doesn't matter because the NRA has a lock grip on enough congressmen/women to prevent any new laws.

I understand and agree with you. And please do not confuse my joy at mocking trolls in the post you quoted with the respectful, mature conversations I get to have with people like you, thollandpe, mzilliox, murphy, Mr. Strongin and Mr. Fattic. But I'm no longer willing to show courtesy to those who won't reciprocate. Show me I'm incorrect (as Todd did above) and I'll admit my mistake. These are difficult issues, and well-intentioned adults are going to have to grapple with them for a long time. I have no more patience for people who won't come to the table with clean hands.

[King Of Dirk]

Someone mentioned the Heller decision (sorry can't remember who).

That was me, or at least I was one of them. I'm happy to read any links, but I'm not paying the NY Times to do so.

I have no argument with your last paragraph.

[mzilliox]

Wait, does our country have a similar force shield that doesn’t allow guns to be brought in?

Is the force shield of the same kind that prevents drugs from coming into our country?

yes, its called canada. im sorry, this convo goes nowhere anymore. the arguments are disingenuous now. If you think your comment holds merit, kindly try and smuggle a gun in from another country. now take whatever legal gun you own and drive to chicago, if you make it out of jail.

see, if we cant be serious in our efforts at understanding one another with silly blankets all over the place, we arent having a discussion. its quite obvious the majority favor doing more stuff, lets focus on what that stuff is, because you cats like to derail that one a lot. or maybe its already been said, all the solutions that make sense right now, and its just time for a collective bit of courage to make it happen. thats my wager. i think we all know deep down something needs to be done and have a pretty basic idea what those somethings are, if we are being honest. if we are just trying to win or participate in a debate, whats the point?

[thollandpe]

It's not unreasonable to be suspicious/dubious of gun control effectiveness when towns like Chicago will surpass this year's mass-shooting fatality total on any given weekend.

Okay, this is no place for hyperbole. Fair enough. Based on the Tribune and Wikipedia's data, it seems Chicago's fatal shootings in 2019 are only slightly outpacing the number of mass-shooting fatalities in 2019. 297 - 248.

You said that Chicago would surpass our nation’s mass shooting total in a single weekend. That’s hyperbole squared. Or maybe to the 6th power.

Chicago makes a convenient punching bag for the NRA and right-wing media, so it catches my eye.

St. Louis is actually the city with the highest murder rate in the US, but that doesn’t fit the story line because it has some of the most liberal gun laws. No background checks, no permit, no registration, no waiting period for handguns. Open carry. Stand your ground. The NRA buffet.

Illinois has more restrictive gun laws than the five states it shares a border with. Especially Indiana, and that’s where most of the guns are imported from. And Gary, Indiana is pretty much the same metro area as Chicago, right?

Violent gun related crime in Chicago does not disprove that gun laws work, any more than a cold snap in Chicago disproves climate change.

TH

[King Of Dirk]

im sorry, this convo goes nowhere anymore. the arguments are disingenuous now...

...its quite obvious the majority favor doing more stuff, lets focus on what that stuff is, because you cats like to derail that one a lot. or maybe its already been said, all the solutions that make sense right now, and its just time for a collective bit of courage to make it happen. thats my wager. i think we all know deep down something needs to be done and have a pretty basic idea what those somethings are, if we are being honest. if we are just trying to win or participate in a debate, whats the point?

Whoa, Matt. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. My views are more aligned with Dallas and Bill than with many of you guys, but we've found a way to communicate. This thread is good stuff. All of us here might be only a ripple in the pond, but we're doing something to stay engaged and, shit, apparently we care enough about each other to argue if nothing else.

I hope I live long enough to see discussions like these in public fora again. Pick your own example, but god dammit I miss William F. Buckley Jr's "Firing Line." He and: Gore Vidal, Jimmy Carter, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Allen Ginsberg, Huey Newton, Noam Chomsky, etc weren't always warm and fuzzy with each other, but just the fact that they'd sit down together for an hour or so meant something. The closest thing these days, sadly, is Bill Maher's show or maybe Sam Harris' podcast. It's not enough. To use Strongin's word from above, the alienation is ripping us apart more than our disagreements ever could.

Keep talking.

[King Of Dirk]

You said that Chicago would surpass our nation’s mass shooting total in a single weekend. That’s hyperbole squared. Or maybe to the 6th power.

Chicago makes a convenient punching bag for the NRA and right-wing media, so it catches my eye.

St. Louis is actually the city with the highest murder rate in the US, but that doesn’t fit the story line because it has some of the most liberal gun laws. No background checks, no permit, no registration, no waiting period for handguns. Open carry. Stand your ground. The NRA buffet.

Illinois has more restrictive gun laws than the five states it shares a border with. Especially Indiana, and that’s where most of the guns are imported from. And Gary, Indiana is pretty much the same metro area as Chicago, right?

Violent gun related crime in Chicago does not disprove that gun laws work, any more than a cold snap in Chicago disproves climate change.

TH

I am guilty of glancing at stats on the Trib's site too quickly, and mistaking number of shootings with number of fatal shootings. So I'm a bonehead to the 6th power, but I'm not an asshole, so I apologize for touching a nerve. I resigned my NRA Life Membership a week after President George H.W. Bush did (and for the same reason), so I have no love (or respect) for that organization. You may fairly call me a right-wing dude (much more conservative that anything on Fox, that's for sure, since I actually prize small government unlike the GOP), but please don't lump me in with the NRA, or labor under the notion that I give a shit what they do or think...if they think.

I would like to hear more about Missouri's lack of background checks. I find it difficult to believe, which is a far cry from saying I don't believe you. Are you saying none at all, or none in private sales?

I'm not insinuating that Chicago's gun laws don't work, I'm flatly stating that gun laws, as they currently exist in the United States generally, aren't working as well as we need them to. Some portion of that failure is attributable to those who won't apply them, and some to jurisdictional differences, and some to myriad other factors. And I get your point about cold snaps and climate change; it's not rational to apply a few outliers to the whole system and pretend it's indicative of anything but a fluke.

[caleb]

@murphy I don't think the velocity really matters at the close ranges where mass shootings occur. Handguns are mostly low-speed, but the technology in the bullets can make up for the lack of speed. Shotguns are low speed, and buckshot within 10 yards is about the most devastating round available to civilians. It was so effective as a tench warfare round in the First World War that it was later banned as a weapon of war.

Velocity begins to matter mostly beyond 100 yards, and that's not the range where these shootings occur.

[vertical_doug]

The old winchester black talons and teflon coated bullets were never about velocity.

[marley]

Please, regale me with the gun control triumphs of Trump's predecessor.

Trump's DOJ - banned bump stocks.
Obama's DOJ - "lost" 1,430 guns to Mexican cartels: ATF loses track of 1,400 guns in criticized probe - CNN.com

Troll elsewhere.

Troll your own ass.

Why keep bringing up the past we are talking about now ( you sound like tRump when you do that, “well he didn’t do it so why should I”, I expect this off my children) your trying to solve a problem on the internet with google and Wikipedia backing up your brain. There are some 485 elected ass wipes that can change the laws. Not 4-5 ass wipes playing point/ counter point on the web.

Jane you ignorant ......

[thollandpe]

I resigned my NRA Life Membership a week after President George H.W. Bush did (and for the same reason), so I have no love (or respect) for that organization.

You have my respect.

And thanks for your willingness to discuss changes to gun laws, even additional ones. Yes crafting legislation is difficult, and we don’t always get it right. But warts and all, I sincerely believe that we here in the United States of America have the best system on the planet for doing so.

TH

[choke]

I would like to hear more about Missouri's lack of background checks. I find it difficult to believe, which is a far cry from saying I don't believe you. Are you saying none at all, or none in private sales?

All states have background checks on purchases from licensed dealers....it's a Federal law. MO doesn't have background checks on private purchases but that's not unusual; only 12 states require a check for all firearms transfers and 2 require a check on handguns only.

[jclay]

.....But warts and all, I sincerely believe that we here in the United States of America have the best system on the planet for doing so. TH

The data suggests otherwise, else we wouldn't have orders of magnitude more firearms violence than other developed countries.

I want to be open minded and collaborative, but to Bill's point, doing "something" isn't worth it if it doesn't demonstrably save lives.

Does the track record of other developed nations, as it relates to prohibiting civilian possession of semi-autos and far greater control of other firearms, in saving lives count? I say it does.

It's not unreasonable to be suspicious/dubious of gun control effectiveness when towns like Chicago will surpass this year's mass-shooting fatality total on any given weekend.

But it is extremely unrealistic to think that any given city's prohibitions will accomplish much of anything when they are situated in an ocean of firearms with functionally zero friction related to transportation anywhere in the lower 48.

But do you think any of that low hanging fruit is a root cause of the shootings? Just about everything discussed is about addressing symptoms, not causes. Do we just address mass shootings or do we root cause all shootings not self inflicted?

We would be wise to address all aspects.

I think the societal root causes are adequately known; certainly by sociologists and others who study such things. Poverty, loss of blue collar jobs, dysfunctional families, excessive concentration of wealth, lack of physical and mental health care for all, both parents working and kids left unattended, etc., etc., etc. It's a long list. As it relates to white males committing hate-crime mass-shootings it's the threat to their cultural beliefs and social & economic position posed by “others”; in short it's the fear of a rapidly changing world, country and culture. But we're not exceptional in having faced those sorts of problems and it's a sure bet that humanity will have them in abundance for as long as we exist.

Juxtaposed to that we see that a bunch of other advanced democracies who have decided to ban semi-autos and heavily restrict/regulate other firearms; and their rates of firearms homicides are orders of magnitude less than ours. Since societal stressors have been with us since we swung out of the trees, and will be with us until we no longer exist it makes sense to add friction to the system, and outright prohibitions of some forms of weapons. And we obviously buy into that, else I'd be able to purchase an Exocet.

We know what we need to know; culturally, we simply don't like the answer. Whether or not the easy availability of semi-autos is technically a root cause is beside the point. If we had never allowed semi-autos into the civilian population we wouldn't have had our history of mass shootings. But we shouldn't limit ourselves to the firearms aspect; we should address all components, root and otherwise, including firearms.

[jclay]

I'll say it yet again: Either we remove semi-automatics from the civilian population of our entire country or we will continue to have mass shootings. Doing so would be a very difficult task requiring consistent, long term (decades) application of large sticks and carrots, changing the narrative and changing parts our culture to a not insignificant degree. Addressing socio/economic issues would obviously be vital. Good luck to us.

It would be refreshing to have the adults in our country either acknowledge that fact (more guns = more shootings) or indicate that they think the cost in lives is worth whatever they're getting out of owning semi-autos. I won't hold my breath.

It should go without saying that I think other firearms and their owners should be heavily controlled/licensed, carry liability insurance and so on. I won't hold my breath for that either.

[Blue Jays]

Please do not lock the thread again if others do not uniformly agree and march in locked step.

[jclay]

Please do not lock the thread again if others do not uniformly agree and march in locked step.

That is not why I locked it but I appreciate the pun.

You're welcome to ask why if you're interested.

[King Of Dirk]

Troll your own ass.

Why keep bringing up the past we are talking about now ( you sound like tRump when you do that, “well he didn’t do it so why should I”, I expect this off my children) your trying to solve a problem on the internet with google and Wikipedia backing up your brain. There are some 485 elected ass wipes that can change the laws. Not 4-5 ass wipes playing point/ counter point on the web.

Jane you ignorant ......

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to the thread, Chief.

[marley]

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to the thread, Chief.

I am from Massachusetts, I am related to E. Warren and you just insulted me....

[Blue Jays]

"...I am from Massachusetts, I am related to E. Warren and you just insulted me..."

Now that is witty and funny! I like how VSalonistas can be lighthearted.

[King Of Dirk]

I am from Massachusetts, I am related to E. Warren and you just insulted me....

I married one of y'all 18 years ago (for some reason she's still willing to be seen in public with me). Though I stick out like a sore thumb up there, I must admit I love your state.

"Good Will Hunting" is to blame for cluing in the rest of the country on the "Chief" thing. I don't I ever hear it outside of New England. And wait...isn't E. Warren related to everyone?

Senator Warren is a person I respect tremendously. She's awkward and tone-deaf, but one of the smartest people I've ever seen/will ever see. I don't know if she's destined to be President, but I wish "my team" could get past the Pocahontas stuff and engage her on the personal finance/consumer protection/bankruptcy issues where she simply excels. Maybe they don't because they know they can't "win" - to your point about elected ass wipes.

Anyway, I'll buy you a beer next time I'm in Yankeeland.