Relevant Machining Resources

[cblandford]

While at the bookstore over the weekend, I found myself in the metalworking section flipping through machining books. Not planned--merely the result of some bicycles-on-the-brain wandering. I wanted to take one home, but I couldn't decide which--if any--would be relevant to frame making. Got me wondering...

Does anyone have a favorite, introductory machining book they'd recommend? Or other resources--video series, websites, etc--you've found useful and relevant?

If I ever decided to add a machine to my workshop, I'd likely seek out instruction. Until then, however, some basic knowledge would be fun to acquire!

-Chris

[Andrew R Stewart]

The two machine tools that are by far the most common in frame shops are the lathe and the mill. Both have their advocates. I got my lathe nearly 40 years ago and my mill about 5 years ago. Were I to do it over I would get the mill first.

The lathe is neat for making braze ons for the frame. Tube mitering can be done but tends to not hold the tubes as securely (and that's a big factor when using coarse toothed hole saws on thin walled tubes...) as a mill can. If the spindle through hole is large enough one can cut the crown race seat really well (and save that hand tool cost). But after a few years my use of the lathe became less and less.

The mill is better at tool making (like braze on holders or jigs). It's better at mitering. It's better at slotting things like BB shells (if that's your game, been there...). I find myself returning to the mill frequently, even using it as a solid drill press sometimes.

Either can be a big pain to house and or move. Both might need 220 and or 3 phase power. Both can be bought used with common care in checking it out first.

I would get an instructional vid or book about whichever you were thinking of ending up with. My lathe book is "The Amateur's Lathe" by L H Sparey. I don't have an equivalent for the mill, and it's my loss that I don't.

What I did get a lot out of, years ago again, was taking the first couple of semesters of a tool and die course that the local community college offered, during the evenings. What it did most for me was to teach me I didn't want to be a production machine tool jockey, hoping to move to the clean side of the shop floor.


Now while not what I would call machine tools, the two I would get before a mill are a bench grinder and a drill press.

And long before a full frame jig would be the flat surface plate. Andy

[Paul Jacobs]

I second Andy's suggestion for a book on the lathe. I already had a lathe and a mill (and a grinder and a drill press) before I built my first frame. I use the lathe much more than the mill for frame building. I am not saying that Andy is wrong, I am just offering a different point of view. It will depend on the lathe. If the lathe is big enough it is possible to clamp tubes firmly. My lathe has variable speed control and my mill does not, which is also a factor.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Paul makes a good point, whether he realizes it or not, about my lathe. It is a 6" Atlas that is rather loose and way small. I chose it because I could lift it on my own (and have used that "feature" as I've moved it many times). But it's the minimal size and slop that combine to make it so poor for mitering or doing large work. Daza fully agrees with Paul when Daza says "a lathe is a beautiful thing".

Had I got a 10 to 12" swing lathe with a 1+" spindle through hole I likely would have a different opinion. but I still would want a mill. Andy

[EricKeller]

there is a lot of good stuff on youtube. I'm mostly self-sufficient at machining ops, but if I want to see somebody do something I have never done before, I go to youtube. Also good for CAD

[cblandford]

Thanks Andy and Paul!

I have built a handful of frames over the past year or so; to date, everything I've done has been done by hand. My only current machine is a drill press, which--honestly--I use very little.

I've found hand-mitering tubes to be both straightforward and (weirdly) enjoyable. Even building lugless (all fillet), I've never wished for a machine to help me miter tubes. It's a little time-consuming, but--for me--killing time is one of the aims of learning how to build a bicycle.

There have been instances, though--even in such a short time period--that I've found myself wanting to do something that just isn't doable by hand. Turning down tubes for sleeves, for example. Or making/modifying my own braze-ons, binders, etc. And I've come to absolutely despise slotting seat tubes and machining crown races by hand. In addition, I've always had a general interest in machining. This hobby seems like a good excuse to learn yet more new... stuff.

In searching these forums, I've found a ton of examples on specific machining setups, jigs, etc. But, I didn't see a lot of more basic information--like where to go to learn the basic principles--in a way that would applicable to this type of work. So, I really appreciate your suggestions!

My lathe book is "The Amateur's Lathe" by L H Sparey. I don't have an equivalent for the mill, and it's my loss that I don't.

It looks like the big famous bookstore here in town has copies of both this one and Paul's Milling book suggestion in-hand. I'm going to swing over there in a bit!

Both of your responses are precisely the reason for my asking in the first place... "Variable Speed Control", "Coarse Tooth Hole Saws", "12-inch Swing"... These are new concepts to an idiot like me!

I appreciate your time. If my interest is piqued by these books, I'll report back. Beers-on-me-whenever, and all that.

-Chris

Photos of my pathetic hand-work here, if you're interested: The Bland Bicycle - Home

[steve garro]

I have built a handful of frames over the past year or so; to date, everything I've done has been done by hand. My only current machine is a drill press, which--honestly--I use very little.

I've found hand-mitering tubes to be both straightforward and (weirdly) enjoyable. Even building lugless (all fillet)

Do you intend on doing a lot more bikes?

It's a good thing to learn, but it gets painful after 50 or so.

I have a mill because that's what fell in my lap - and don't dis the drill press, just set it up for H2O holes and vent holes - those and a bench grinder and you're off to a good start.

- Garro.

[cblandford]

Do you intend on doing a lot more bikes?

It's a good thing to learn, but it gets painful after 50 or so.

- Garro.

That makes sense. I made 3 frames last year; shooting for 4-5 this year. So no, not a lot.
Given how quickly I go through shop roll, I can see where a bench grinder would be nice.

Thanks for the advice!

-Chris

[steve garro]

shop roll, I can see where a bench grinder would be nice.



-Chris

Two different tools, there - one makes metal clean and shiny, one removes bulk material.

Sounds like you want a die grinder too

- Garro.

[Doug Fattic]

The South Bend lathe company put out a book many years ago on how to use a lathe that is a classic and a good basic guide for beginners. The company got bought out by Grizzly and their manufacturing plant about 10 miles south of me got razzed to the ground maybe 5 years ago. It took up a whole city block.

One tool I find I use more than my bench grinder is my 1" X 42" bench belt sander. It is so convenient to square up ends among other tasks. It is the tool I miss the most in our frame shop near Kiev, Ukraine.

[Bill Bryant]

+1 on the suggestion by Doug for the value of a 1x42" bench top belt sander. I use it all the time in the workshop, frame building and otherwise. In fact, I've got two mounted next to each other on a workbench. One is a high-speed 1970s Rockwell for ripping into things, while the other is low-speed Central Machinery import from the 1980s. This one gets the most use on frame tubes, lugs, and other frame-related tasks. If I had to choose to keep just one, it would be the latter. It gets about 80% the use. With these two tools I stopped using my bench grinder and gave it away years ago to free up space on the workbench.

Bill Bryant
Santa Cruz, CA

[Andrew R Stewart]

I have a couple of bench grinders and a 1x42 belt sander. One grinder has a coarse and fine wheel on it. The other a wire wheel and a buffing one. The belt sander is Kalamazoo bought on sale.

I use the stone wheeled grinder as much as the belt sander. The grinder is the work horse for big removal needs. I have done the rough cut on miters with it as example. The belt sander I use more as a finishing removal device, for less removal and a nicer control of shape of the results.

I also have a 1/4" die grinder that gets more use then it's little bro, the Dremel. Andy

[steve garro]

I also have a 1/4" die grinder Andy

Yes.

I have a Bosch one that I think could power a go-cart.


- Garro.

[cblandford]

Two different tools, there - one makes metal clean and shiny, one removes bulk material.

Sounds like you want a die grinder too

Shows what I know; I thought a belt sander and bench grinder were one in the same. And I do have a dremel that I use a bit, but it's obviously (even to my eye) lacking.

The South Bend lathe company put out a book many years ago on how to use a lathe that is a classic and a good basic guide for beginners.

Thanks Doug - I will check that out.


This is all great for me to ponder as I continue to whittle away on things with my quickly-dulling files. Being new to these tasks, as I get about half-way through most things I often find myself saying, "there has got to be a better way". So, I really appreciate your insights.

-Chris

[Ben Hudson]

Count me in as another vote for The Amateur's Lathe. After that, I've also found value in the Workshop Practice series, mostly written by some of the big names in the British modelmaking scene. I don't know if there was a comparable phase in the US but in the pre-WW2 UK there was a boom in the production of small lathes for amateur use, so they are well-documented, and quite well-supported into the present for the manufacturers that lasted later into the century. I have (in bits) a 50s Myford ML7 which is a pretty typical 3 1/2 inch English lathe (7" by US standards); a lathe of this sort of size is excellent for bike-scale work, apart from its very restrictive through-bore. I really should put it back together. I could never have gotten started making frames without it; there have been countless jig bits and bike parts I've made with it.

There are also a number of simple guides (some lathe model-specific) made for the US Army; this is a general one (and, I think, the one I have printed out at home, covered in oil): https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/pdf/lathe.pdf

Moving into the 21st century I subscribe to This Old Tony on YouTube and always learn something as well as having fun.

I have personally resisted the urge to do all my tube fit up with machine tools; I've found it not only satisfying but productive too - at the rate that you and I are making frames, the time spent learning how to mitre tubes accurately with hand tools has a better payoff than machine setup and fixturing. Machines are always far more repeatable than hand work but not necessarily meaningfully more accurate, easy or time effective. You can do a lot with a small lathe, a small mill, and a good selection of excellent hand files.

[claritycycler]

Search Tubal Cain on utube, he's a retired high school machine shop teacher and has a sh@tload of vids. You'll need to do some looking but he covers a lot of basic procedures on mill and lathe, well worth the time to watch.

About watching: lots of utube vids(Tubal Cain aka Mr. Pete included) proceed at a very slow pace, you'll see a settings icon at the bottom right on the screen, click it and can choose normal, 1.25, 1.5, 2 x speeds, cuts the watching time way down. I seldom watch utube tutorials at normal speed, when I do want/need to slow an operation down I then click back to normal speed, then back up.

Brian

[Paul Jacobs]

Count me in as another vote for The Amateur's Lathe. After that, I've also found value in the Workshop Practice series, mostly written by some of the big names in the British modelmaking scene. I don't know if there was a comparable phase in the US but in the pre-WW2 UK there was a boom in the production of small lathes for amateur use, so they are well-documented, and quite well-supported into the present for the manufacturers that lasted later into the century. I have (in bits) a 50s Myford ML7 which is a pretty typical 3 1/2 inch English lathe (7" by US standards); a lathe of this sort of size is excellent for bike-scale work, apart from its very restrictive through-bore. I really should put it back together. I could never have gotten started making frames without it; there have been countless jig bits and bike parts I've made with it.

There are also a number of simple guides (some lathe model-specific) made for the US Army; this is a general one (and, I think, the one I have printed out at home, covered in oil): https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/pdf/lathe.pdf

Moving into the 21st century I subscribe to This Old Tony on YouTube and always learn something as well as having fun.

I have personally resisted the urge to do all my tube fit up with machine tools; I've found it not only satisfying but productive too - at the rate that you and I are making frames, the time spent learning how to mitre tubes accurately with hand tools has a better payoff than machine setup and fixturing. Machines are always far more repeatable than hand work but not necessarily meaningfully more accurate, easy or time effective. You can do a lot with a small lathe, a small mill, and a good selection of excellent hand files.

The advantage of the Myford ML7 is, as you say, the ready availabilty of tooling and spares, particularly in the UK. The small bore of the earlier machines is a slight restriction but my later one has a 1" bore in the headstock so it will handle a 1" steerer tube which is useful.

I absolutely agree that a great advantage of a lathe is the ability to make your own frame fixtures and custom frame parts. Cantilever brake bosses may not be at the cutting edge of 21st century bike technology but it is nice to be able to create something which exactly fits the frame design and not just make do with what is commercially available.

I also have a milling machine with a spindle nose which is identical to that of a Myford lathe so that I can use Myford lathe tooling in my milling machine.