A difference of opinion

[Donald]

In a recent thread on mtb frame design, Garro posted up a (wonderfully detailed) client message soliciting a frame.
There was a line in it that caught my attention regarding the [would-be] client's thoughts on bike fit.

When you get a client who's sold on YOUR bike, but doesn't necessarily agree with your fit, how do you handle this?

I'd suspect that having a strong [published] explanation of how you approach fit/design would go a long way to reducing the frequency of this sort of occurrence, but surely it still happens. In fact, I'm certain at least one of you has had a "just build me a 54 square" client in recent history.

I know many of you have enough experience and clout that you can lean heavily on an appeal-to-authority, knowing that your kool-aid will taste better to them than their current flavor, but maybe think back to when you didn't have that sway.

I'd suspect that the early conversations with the client would yield some sense of how willing they might be to try a different way of thinking, but how do you weigh building a bike you believe will be a great fit for them versus the risk that something different will be viewed as something worse?

Is it not even worth the hassle/risk, and when confronted with such a difference of ideology, do you just politely point them in the direction of a colleague who is more in line with their way of thinking? Or is every potential client its own crusade to spread your good word? After all, if you build them a bike that fits, won't it feel better to them than a bike that doesn't?

I guess this is part of a larger conversation about handling/managing expectations for those of us trying to put bread on the table.

[e-RICHIE]

Don't compromise.
Never compromise.

[Donald]

Don't compromise.
Never compromise.

I suppose it's not that well thought out a question, you're right. If I get pushback on a design, attempt to justify my decisions, and the client remains unconvinced, the lack of fit (builder/client) would preclude any further action.

Perhaps I just need to further expound (internally) the rationale for my design, then my ability to levy a convincing argument against longstanding, yet arbitrary fit dogma will improve.

I think I may have just been triggered by one such concept in the aforementioned thread and was curious about how the more experienced of you set about the task of opening a client's mind to the idea that they are more than just their femur length or that they may not want such a slammed stem/slack seattube because they've broken their hip previously and (among other things) their premature standing on gentle climbs may suggest that they lack the ability to effectively output power over their entire range of motion with their current positioning?

To be clear, I'm not asking how any of you fit and design your bikes, I'm more concerned with how you reconcile differences in your design with the client's expectations.

Or, is this a moot point, and should I just establish that I have my way of doing a thing (brand, sic), and if a client wants my bike, then my way of thinking is what they're gonna get?

[e-RICHIE]

I suppose it's not that well thought out a question, you're right. If I get pushback on a design, attempt to justify my decisions, and the client remains unconvinced, the lack of fit (builder/client) would preclude any further action.

Perhaps I just need to further expound (internally) the rationale for my design, then my ability to levy a convincing argument against longstanding, yet arbitrary fit dogma will improve.

I think I may have just been triggered by one such concept in the aforementioned thread and was curious about how the more experienced of you set about the task of opening a client's mind to the idea that they are more than just their femur length or that they may not want such a slammed stem/slack seattube because they've broken their hip previously and (among other things) their premature standing on gentle climbs may suggest that they lack the ability to effectively output power over their entire range of motion with their current positioning?

To be clear, I'm not asking how any of you fit and design your bikes, I'm more concerned with how you reconcile differences in your design with the client's expectations.

Or, is this a moot point, and should I just establish that I have my way of doing a thing (brand, sic), and if a client wants my bike, then my way of thinking is what they're gonna get?

Their expectations should balance with the message you send, be it personally or via website, or otherwise. If they can't grasp it, they're either thick or you're not articulate. I'll leave that one there.

And to my mind - once again - enough with this branding stuff. To wit, I had a fellow maker visit the other day (he was 28 and only 3 years at a bench) and I asked if there's anything he'd like to know, or see - whatever. And his only interest was regarding branding. Just make stuff. When a body of work exists, and there are some years behind it, and you have a way (in air quotes) maybe branding would be an appropriate subject.

[steve garro]

When you get a client who's sold on YOUR bike how do you handle this?

I've never sold anyone MY bike.

Much more client interaction is required from that initial shot over the bow to a working design.

I need enough into to build THEIR bike.

You can go back and interpret that paragraph any way you want, but by the time I cut tubes for TP I'll know all his body measurements and the dimensions of at least his last two or three bikes, what he liked or didn't about them all as well as every component on it.


It's too expensive to just chuck darts at a map.


I mean........I have to build bikes for people with Pegorettis.......Sachs.......Spectrums......Erikso ns.......you name it........these are people who I like to think know a thing or two about good bikes & what works.


That's what I have to say, this is too esoteric and Y2K of a topic for any more elaboration on my part.

- Garro.

[Donald]

I've never sold anyone MY bike.

As the thread title goes...

I absolutely sell people MY bikes.
They are each made by ME. They have MY sweat, and in some cases blood, invested in them. They bear MY name. I give each one the same attention and care I'd give a bike that would hang on my wall, that I'd ride, day after day, because I know I care way more about them than whomever is paying me for them.

I build them to THEIR spec, for them, and when they change hands, they certainly are their bikes. But to say they aren't MY bikes, as I make them, to me, implies some level of the washing of hands.

[Rody]

Donald,

One of your responsibilities as a custom builder is to aid the customer in defining the correct design for their needs. So much marketing and popular trends pull at folks attention, it is easy to have a client come to your door with a shopping list of the latest design interations...but is that what they really need?

I lean heavily on active listening; asking probing questions then listening carefully to the customers response to determine the information I require.

Often, the answers I receive contrast significantly with the direction the customer first indicated they would like to pursue.

It is through this process that you, as the builder, can educate, direct, and find a design that truly meets the customers physical and performance needs, while balancing the ride characteristics you like to employ that make the creation unique to your style.

I've found that the customer finds value in this process as it expands their working knowledge of bicycle design, helps them understand the elements you find valuable in bicycle fit and performance, and ultimately, builds trust.

It's solid advice to know who you are as a builder and be true to that, but don't be so rigid as to stop your own evolution. If the customer's desires still push past your comfort level, don't be afraid to part ways and recommend a builder that is more aligned with their needs; you'll both be happier in the end.

Best of luck in your burgeoning career,

Rody

[steve garro]

As the thread title goes...

I absolutely sell people MY bikes.
They are each made by ME. They have MY sweat, and in some cases blood, invested in them. They bear MY name. I give each one the same attention and care I'd give a bike that would hang on my wall, that I'd ride, day after day, because I know I care way more about them than whomever is paying me for them.

I build them to THEIR spec, for them, and when they change hands, they certainly are their bikes. But to say they aren't MY bikes, as I make them, to me, implies some level of the washing of hands.

Hey, Donald, how about doing a Smoked Out?

It may be a really good opportunity to show off your ideas and builds?

- Garro.