Eliminating "The Path"?

[Will Neide]

Just thinking out loud here, but has there been any consideration into merging The Path and Mentor back into one frame building discussion forum? Just seems like the frame forum could use some kind of spark to bring back the lively discussions.

Most of the time if see something in the Mentor section, I PM the OP of that discussion with info if I have it.

[progetto]

I don't want to speak out of place but I believe mentor can only be answered by Smoked Alumni ie experienced tradesmen and The Path is for anybody to voice their opinion. Keeps out some of the white noise.

Just thinking out loud here, but has there been any consideration into merging The Path and Mentor back into one frame building discussion forum? Just seems like the frame forum could use some kind of spark to bring back the lively discussions.

Most of the time if see something in the Mentor section, I PM the OP of that discussion with info if I have it.

[EricKeller]

"the path" has a lot more traffic than "mentor", so if anything, "mentor" should go.

[Rkanz]

I don’t have an opinion, but want say thanks to everyone that gives generously of their time and knowledge. As a hobby bike builder most of what I know came from here. This is a massive body of knowledge. I recently completed bike a race bike for my son. He put this on the podium at a local criterium and has earned many PR’s with the bike. That is due in a large part to this place. Lots of pieces came together on this build. There is some kind of sprinting magic in those short taper Columbus stays.8F539582-9A51-4E32-9138-22DA9984E504.jpg

Russ Kanz

[jclay]

I don't want to speak out of place but I believe mentor can only be answered by Smoked Alumni ie experienced tradesmen and The Path is for anybody to voice their opinion. Keeps out some of the white noise.

I too appreciate all the time, effort and knowledge that some of the professionals have freely given. Certain individuals have been incredible and some of them know I feel that way.

I understand the rationale for Mentor but I think it's been detrimental to discussion and the transfer of knowledge. Mentor filters occasional white noise and mis-information but it also filters beneficial information from folks who don't happen to be professionals. I also think it tends to squelch conversation in general. Advancement, or even just learning the established basics, in any field, doesn't come only from those in it. I can understand how annoying some of the questions and questioning might sometimes be but limiting the discussion to only those with "union cards" is stifling; and sometimes those outside the "union" are better teachers or have helpful perspectives.

I remember an orthopedic surgeon once telling me that his woodworking and metal fabricating hobbies made him better at his job. There are a lot of capable craftspeople, often from unrelated, and sometimes allied, fields who have useful information to offer and Mentor filters that out.

[steve garro]

I understand the rationale for Mentor but I think it's been detrimental to discussion and the transfer of knowledge. Mentor filters occasional white noise and mis-information but it also filters beneficial information from folks who don't happen to be professionals. I also think it tends to squelch conversation in general. Advancement, or even just learning the established basics, in any field, doesn't come only from those in it.


I can understand how annoying some of the questions and questioning might sometimes be but limiting the discussion to only those with "union cards" is stifling; and sometimes those outside the "union" are better teachers or have helpful perspectives.

Well there's The Path or MTBR

What's your specific complaint ??

I always figured free advice was worth every cent you paid........






- Garro.

[Crowemagnon]

ive used both, as targeted audiences for a small number of queries, and had heaps of valuable discussion in the path, though little in the mentor. i often find myself with snippets that could be quite helpful answers for questions which i cant reply to in mentor, so either i'm the white noise that the forum is trying to filter out, or somethings wrong with the format. either of these scenarios is fine, but they are quite different spaces.

i remember when the powers at be had a really big go at the guy from starling cycles about heat control and we never heard much more from him. that was a loss that could've maybe been avoided with a little more of the path style discussion i say.

there are clever people here who are active and have strong voices. and i've not once seen them leave what they see as bad advice unchallenged, so what is mentor adding?

[Blacklabbikes]

I often find myself with snippets that could be quite helpful answers for questions which i cant reply to in mentor, so either i'm the white noise that the forum is trying to filter out, or somethings wrong with the format. either of these scenarios is fine, but they are quite different spaces.

Ditto, I sometimes have what I think may be useful input or thought, and am happy to not comment when I don't. That said, most advice on an online platform is "buyer beware" and the current format goes some way to ensuring a reply, if any, will have some relevant experience behind it.

i remember when the powers at be had a really big go at the guy from starling cycles about heat control and we never heard much more from him. that was a loss that could've maybe been avoided with a little more of the path style discussion i say.

I read that thread. There were good points on both sides and the intent to lead the poster to the answer rather than spell it out is definitely in there - a good way to learn but much easier to see the path if you have already trodden it. Perhaps a few more voices or a lesson less sharply put might have kept starling as part of the conversation, perhaps not.
It is unrealistic for anyone wanting to start in the trade to make hundreds of practice frames and scrap them but the core principle of don't sell to people when you haven't got the basics right has to be strongly put. I don't think that building hundreds of frames is required to feel great concern at the thought of selling a full sus frame that could be ridden really, really hard, built by someone that didn't already understand that a 3600 degree torch causes a lot of thermal expansion, no matter how small the heated area.

[duanedr]

VS certainly lost some Wild West-ness when the Path was separated from Mentor. I personally don’t mind the noise (I know the names of the folks putting out the signal) but I understand the frustration of trying to provide a signal (over and over and over) and having it drowned out by noise created by those who are working on design for #0001 . And those signal folks make the rules so...whatever they want to make their contributions easier for them. I read some forums and try to predict which 'advice' will end in disaster. It's entertainment.

I think the thing I miss - and it might just be me - but open ended (eg how do you all ensure adding seat stays doesn’t pull the rear end out of alignment?) seem less appropriate in Mentor . I can't really say why but, it does.

Finally, I will say, whatever format the forum takes, please don't go dark.
Thanks

[e-RICHIE]

For those wonder or have asked, the Mentor page is where anyone can ask a question and hopefully one of the selected professional and careers guys can reply to it. On The Path, anyone can reply. The only caveat at all is that anonymity doesn't work in either place.

Maybe the two boards are silly. Or the names are poorly chosen. It doesn't matter. The split was made to keep the signal to noise down in those discussions where, in the past, people with little to maybe hobby level experience were adding their perspective. This further clouds any discussion, and certainly those when direction and instruction are sought. The entire rest of the internet permits anyone to say anything, and it normally goes unchallenged. The professional and career people here thought enough is enough when it came to some of the bullshit and lore being passed off as advice.

And to John above - I mean this in the most positive and kind way I can muster, what with words and nuance making communication murky in these matters - most of my inspirations, no - all of them - come from the fashion, art, and design fields. I pay precious little attention to what happens in the bicycle industry. As long as good components are available for me to make my frames my way, and assemble them so they please me, nothing else matters.

Looking around, casting the net about, these enable me to make my frames better. To feel better about what I do at the bench. But when it was time to improve my lot in life as I was ascending the trade stepladder, the only thing that mattered was what those before me said and did. That's where the education comes from. And it's why we have the division here on V Place. Folks wanna jawbone and tease out what they think they know after their seventh frame, or some assembly attempted in 2004 before the tools were put in storage - these people can share their stories anyplace, and on The Path too. For those interested in a trade perspective, asking on Mentor will get them a direct route to the rest of us who do this for real.

[Michael Gordon]

VS certainly lost some Wild West-ness when the Path was separated from Mentor.

I certainly feel like this is what the framers (pun intended!) meant to happen when the separation was made. What I miss however, is the ability to reply to a thread on the mentor forum with a question on a topic that I did not start.

There has certainly been a slowdown in traffic since the change.

[e-RICHIE]

I certainly feel like this is what the framers (pun intended!) meant to happen when the separation was made. What I miss however, is the ability to reply to a thread on the mentor forum with a question on a topic that I did not start.

Just make it an opportunity to start another discussion.

There has certainly been a slowdown in traffic since the change.

I love you Michael, as much as I can love someone I don't know, but we're not here for traffic or clicks. We're hear to impart proven information. What has slowed down is the faux interest in this trade we practice and after a decade or more of people playing frame builder (not you) the numbers show that most realize it's a job of work, not a creative process or one of the decorative arts.

[progetto]

The thing about solid advice ie. mentoring, is some open their minds and listen whilst other plough along on their own path. Skills are one thing, experience is everything.

[Doug Fattic]

My opinion is that whoever does the work gets to make the rules. Consumers can choose to participate or not. I've never bothered to apply to be a mentor but if I think I have something of value to add to a subject started in Mentor, I have brought the same subject up in the Path.

[e-RICHIE]

ive used both, as targeted audiences for a small number of queries, and had heaps of valuable discussion in the path, though little in the mentor. i often find myself with snippets that could be quite helpful answers for questions which i cant reply to in mentor, so either i'm the white noise that the forum is trying to filter out, or somethings wrong with the format. either of these scenarios is fine, but they are quite different spaces.

As I alluded to in my first reply, the intention is for the spaces to be different.

i remember when the powers at be had a really big go at the guy from starling cycles about heat control and we never heard much more from him. that was a loss that could've maybe been avoided with a little more of the path style discussion i say.

I had to search for that thread, having no recollection of it.
After rereading I'm curious about how you can say some here had a go at the man.

there are clever people here who are active and have strong voices. and i've not once seen them leave what they see as bad advice unchallenged, so what is mentor adding?

It separates the conversations of those with speculation and under-training as the foundation for free advice from those with replies and guidance coming from professional and career makers.

[David Tollefson]

I say keep it. Like different sites and forums (fora?) they have different styles, different feeling. I've responded by PM to a couple of posts in the Mentor area, always with a "this is what I've done, check with the pros" caveat.

[duanedr]

For those wonder or have asked, the Mentor page is where anyone can ask a question and hopefully one of the selected professional and careers guys can reply to it. On The Path, anyone can reply. The only caveat at all is that anonymity doesn't work in either place.

Alright, It's probably just me being shy.

My opinion is that whoever does the work gets to make the rules.

Mine too. Thanks for being here.

[Crowemagnon]

well we must read that thread differently, and thats OK.

when i ask what the division is adding, i'm trying to explore the value of the separation it creates by encouraging conversation surrounding it; and im also trying to be a part of that conversation; why? because i can see i have something to gain from it going a certain way.

(define:forum), in short, for me, there hasn't been as much value in the mentor, as in the path side of the forum, or the pro bike tech, or the frame forum before it split, or a number of other nooks and crannies on V that have taught me a silly-huge amount. for me it is disappointing to see traffic and activity low, i am here for clicks (otherwise i could just write a blog and not tell any of you about it, because that is a powerful exercise but not the one i came here looking for).

I participate here because i enjoy the discussion, i learn an enormous browsing these pages, and i enjoy contributing where i feel confident to do so. i always try to carefully explain my credentials, and perspective when i jump in somewhere new, or somewhere serious; this (itself!) is a course of action that the V salon community have harboured in me which i now value in myself.

From where it is now, a slightly more active forum, with a broader scope of voices, is a forum i would enjoy more, and i believe, learn more from, (even if it is one where we need to check the name on the signature before diving into given advice head on,) because sometimes, a perspective from the other side of the fence can be valuable when we least expect it.

[jclay]

From where it is now, a slightly more active forum, with a broader scope of voices, is a forum i would enjoy more, and i believe, learn more from, (even if it is one where we need to check the name on the signature before diving into given advice head on,) because sometimes, a perspective from the other side of the fence can be valuable when we least expect it.

^^Precisely. Examples abound.

[e-RICHIE]

For those whose comments followed mine from yesterday, sometimes the only answer to the question why is because. As many are aware, the professionals and career guys here and elsewhere have been giving it all away since the internet began. I'd wager that the information imparted by us has enabled many of the business entities that came in our wake. They certainly helped an entire legion of FNGs to make a better frame that they otherwise would have.

It seems to me, from this thread, that some folks don't so much want the mentoring and tutorials as much as they wanted to be entertained by the heated discussions that once were part of the landscape. To those I say, we're not the floor show.

With the recent passing of Dario, one of the memorial texts contains this chestnut:

And he was a warrior in the internet forums. He saw himself as a sword-wielding guardian, which he would flourish and cut down over-sized egos. "Why do you do this?" I asked him more than once. He would usually mumble a response like, "Somebody has to tell them they are being stupid."

If some of you are okay with being stupid in clear view, maybe we'll lower the bar and go back to the 2008 standards.