frame building and eggs atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

the organic nature of frame building - taking a pile of parts, some tools,
experience, and a vision - has always confounded me atmo. i'm way more
comfortable with it now than i was when i started. but it often made me
squirm as i was trying to figure out the dance. no two are alike. and some
parts of one can be so very right, while the rest of it is just good enough.
getting it nailed from end to end isn't possible, and i surrendered to that
notion years ago. in some ways it's like the accuracy of a quartz watch
compared to the idiosyncrasies of a mechanical one. i say in some ways,
because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
watchmaker. oh, and in many ways i don't care.

but i do know about frames, and no matter what you bring to the table, and
no matter how hard you try, or how on your game you are, no two are alike.
alas, duplication and repeatability are just dreams atmo.

is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i
can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

[steve garro]

because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
watchmaker.

oh, the spring unwinds differently due to variences in the elongation of the metal as per the fluctuations in temperature - that and friction, mostly. seriously, though - some bikes are a joy, they fall together. others linger in the jig, have parts that end up as recycling fodder or go into the fork sculpture, or get cut up and thrown away or given to friends logo-less. it is really wild, how different builds unfold. throw in custom bending and it compounds. it's like solving puzzles, only you are designing the puzzle WHILE you solve it. starting a new one from scratch today. rock on, steve.

[hampco]

how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?

i first learned to braze from tim isaac at match. tim said: "brazing is like cooking eggs. when it's done more heat won't make it more done."

[steve garro]

how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?

i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.

[crumpton]

i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.

mine is sitting on my bench just like yours, with the blue only left on 6mm. probably for the same reasons.

some one tried to walk out of my shop with it in their pocket the other day. almost had to bonk them on the head with the dead blow.

[Dave Kirk]

It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

[steve garro]

It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.

[e-RICHIE]

so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on?

i'll answer that by pasting in this thought - one that hit me so deep that
i xeroxed it and added to the cover of our handmade wedding invitations
back - what, 13 or so years ago atmo!

[steve garro]

from E-ritchey's post "the trouble they took for something that cannot be seen"..............how about the art shown in somthing done so many times that the competence obtained through repitition shows.......the mastery of the hand & torch vs. the mastery of the file.........an unfiled Ross Schafer fillet brazed Salsa.........it's like drystacking rock walls.........i used to love that shit. i was the "rock guy". they would drop me off with a trailer full of rocks and leave me alone. there's rock work all over town that i look at all the time that i did. it's aging really well.......sure, you could stucco it over and paint it blue..........enough sentimental ranting, it's time to get on with the doing of the thing. steve

[Curt Goodrich]

thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.

Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.

[steve garro]

Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.

and loose the scallop made by the torch? it took me 150+ frames to get that right.........:cheers: steve.

[Archibald]

.... So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.

[e-RICHIE]

Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.

nails it atmo.

and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
what it will be.

'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

[Dave Kirk]

nails it atmo.'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

Koan -

koan |ˈkōˌän|
noun
a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

dave

[e-RICHIE]

Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

Koan -

koan |ˈkōˌän|
noun
a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

dave

yes - you get me like a book atmo.
'was intentional.

ps and it's coen brothers iirc imho.

[steve garro]

nails it atmo.

and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
what it will be.

'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

or straight out of Cormac Mc Carthy...........steve.

[zank]

but i do know about frames, and no matter what you bring to the table, and no matter how hard you try, or how on your game you are, no two are alike. alas, duplication and repeatability are just dreams atmo.

is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

One of your quotes in your movie really drove home the point you are making for me. You were talking about making the points where the chainstays mate with the dropouts. You said something along the lines of (and I apologize because I know I am not getting it right) how the shape of point is different from bike to bike and it depended on the condition of your files, your parts and you on that day. This really spoke to me.

I struggle letting go. My dad is a tool maker and he knows I struggle with this. He told me about 10 years ago that at a certain point you have to stop making love to it and get it on its way. And this is coming from a guy who deals in dimensions that are a couple orders of magnitude smaller than I am dealing in. He said he could toil for ages trying to get a cavity in a mold to be "perfect", but in actuality there really is no "perfect".

I sleep well at night knowing that I did the best job I could do. The bikes are safe, will go down the road or trail straight, and look as good as I can make them look. But I know that my fingerprints are on each one. Just ask Twowheels. He found a little "personality" on his bike. And he busted my chops about it just like he should have. It's like finding an easter egg.

[EnginCycles]

I sleep well at night knowing that I did the best job I could do. The bikes are safe, will go down the road or trail straight, and look as good as I can make them look.

Mike- this is how i feel. I get the fact that i am newer at this and have more to learn. I look forward to the idea of learning more and more. It is what gets me up in the morning. I do however know my bikes are safe and the best i can build. Will the bikes change? I would think so. Do they have imperfections (sorry Richard the word just fit)? of course but non of them are more than additions to the serial # on the BB.

I was just at the Cabin Fever Auction hanging out with Jamie Swan who is the definition of a perfectionist that has a hard time letting go. He admits it and in turn builds 3 (record high) bikes a year. He is a machinist first so accuracy is always first with him. I have learned lots from talking with Jamie and always look forward to seeing him. He is a good EGG!

Just got a call from Rody at Groovy Cycle Works. Someone that bought a 953 stem from me sent it to him for a change to an integrated one piece handlebar/stem using his Luv Handles. He was asking me how i made the lug and if it was pinned or not. It was a good example of feeling proud knowing Rody is going to dissect my work and hopefully look at it and say "that is kind of cool".

Cheers,
Drew

[SteveP]

Jamie Swan who is the definition of a perfectionist that has a hard time letting go. He admits it and in turn builds 3 (record high) bikes a year. He is a machinist first so accuracy is always first with him.

no offence to jamie- i dont know him.
he's a hobbiest not a framebuilder.

this like the wheelbuilder who takes 1 1/2 hr to build a wheel- same...hobbiest
3 hrs to put a bike together- hobbiest
etc.

watch a good pro mechanic work on a real team bike.
bang, bang, bang done.
works well enough.

this shit is easy to work on really. and it works fine without getting into a lather about the whole thing.
boom... bb, crank install- 5 minutes. taking longer wont make it better.
same with the rest.
once saddle/ bars stem placed the rest falls into place big time fast.

never confuse slow with good.

[e-RICHIE]

never confuse slow with good.

unless you're engaged in casual sax atmo.
thanks for all the replies to my thread.
that's a wrapmo.