First Frame! Process Pics

[cmsanford88]

Hey Guys!

So I found a very nice frame builder locally to give me some private brazing lessons. We just started but it's been a blast, I've been practicing my brazing and decided to start on my first frame today. I'll be treating this one like a dress rehearsal, using cheap lugs and Nova tubing. If all goes well I'll be take the lessons learned and build the same design in nicer materials. The plan for the final steed is 8/5/8 OS cromo and some Sachs lugs, hopefully nothing to crazy for a new builder but nice none-the-less.

Anyway, here are some photos of the first joint!

My take-aways: More flux? Didn't like the small burned sections on the backside of the lug. Feel like I need to keep the torch moving a bit more. Also, I didn't pull filler all the way to the points of the seat tube miter. My plan right now is to get some filler in there when I put in the down tube, and obviously be more careful next time I do that same joint. Here's a question though, is that mistake a total dealbreaker for a real build, or something I could remedy?


Chris Sanford

[cmsanford88]

New day and some new pictures. Did the bottom head lug and braze ons, forgot to snap some pictures of the lug after cleanup but I was very happy with it, the shore lines came out much tidier than the bottom bracket. The big black spot in the head tube isn't great, I lingred too long in there trying to draw the silver around.

Braze ons went pretty smoothly. The top tube cable guides were the hardest and also the sloppiest brazes, but cleaned up quickly. Just used a welding magnet and a file to keep those in place, will be perusing the 'simple tools' thread for some better options.

Tomorrow I'll be checking alignment and getting some tacks in on the front triangle.Happy to hear any criticism, constructive or otherwise, on this build as it chugs along!

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Chris Sanford

[mzilliox]

How cool, congrats on the next step in the journey

[rauce]

I would suggest not brazing just a lug to one tube like that, you'll get a stronger joint if you do both tubes and the lug at once since you'll have a nice tight fit between tubes.

I like to do the ST/BB, HT/DT and then join those two parts to complete the main triangle. If the final step with three joints is too much at once you can just attach the HT/DT to the ST/BB and then do the TT as a separate step like I did on my first two frames.

[Eric Estlund]

I'll second what Ross is suggesting. Even in lugged frames, the strength of the bike is coming from the tube to tube intersection. The lug is sort of a conduit to get you there. Here a micro fillet will prevent the tubes from contacting and thus rely on the lug as the structure of the bike.

[cmsanford88]

Thanks guys! That makes perfect sense. I got everything aligned and dry fitted this morning and did the rest of the joints. I tack brazed all the lug points, took it off the jig, and then did the bottom bracket, head tube and seat cluster in that order. Thankfully everything stayed pretty straight, had to tweak the seat tube a little but it popped back into the jig without too much fuss.

Felt okay with the process in general, took a minute for each joint to cool and soak before moving on to the next one. Then re-fluxed the next joint and went at it. Probably over-fed most of the joints, wanted to get a sense of how much I could get in there though. Also, looking back at the photos I think the areas where I ran into trouble burning flux are the ones where I heated inside the tube. Think I had the torch in there trying to draw stuff down, then would move it back to the outside of the joint and it was already hot.

Here's a question, if you have a messy shore line, can you reheat it with the lug facing up and wick some of the silver down onto the tube for easier clean up? I guess the danger with this would be taking filler out of the joint as well.

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Chris Sanford

[cmsanford88]

Also, found out my name hadn't been in these posts. I'm Chris Sanford! I live in LA and am getting into framebuilding for fun. This first bike is going to be a 650b Rando build, I'm basing the geo off an old Masi Gran Criterium that I love to death. The hope is a nice balance of zippy and all-day comfortable. Building something that isn't a death trap is also high on my priorities, thus the rough draft build to start.

Thanks for all the info and this awesome forum, you guys are all super inspiring.

[Doug Fattic]

I was going to suggest redoing the seat tube to bb shell again because a little of the socket did not accept any silver but you are past that now. In most circumstances, once the surface gets black, silver won't flow. The goal when brazing any joint is to get full penetration every time without exception. Being satisfied with any other result is not acceptable for anyone that wants to make another. Of course that doesn’t mean your joint will pull apart and you will crash and die. Your braze - since silver covers most of the socket - will likely last a long time (maybe forever) but water may get into the unbrazed part and start the process of damaging it with rust.

Looking at your pictures it appears you really overheated some spots. One common problem when learning to braze is that the beginner's flame motion freezes while placing the silver with the other hand. This stopped action overheats the spot where the flame is pointed. Your teacher should be able to go over with you the other common rookie mistakes and how to avoid them. A lot of poor brazing is caused by these avoidable mistakes.

The reason I suggest doing everything up to professional standards right from the beginning is so that later (maybe even years later) you won’t be embarrassed by a poorly made frame. Unlike Cooks making food whatever you build will represent the quality of any of your work (even at the beginning) for as long as the frame exists. This is why the do-it-yourself learning technique can be come back and hurt reputations later long after the builder has improved. Unless of course those frames can be found and cut into pieces and nobody remembers them.

Getting clean shorelines is a process of moving silver through a joint to where the excess doesn’t matter. It is the hardest aspect of brazing for my framebuilding class students to get the hang of because it involves moving your flame in sync with melting the silver. It usually takes a number of demonstrations and explanations of what is going wrong before they “get it”.

[cmsanford88]

Thanks so much for taking the time to look over everything Doug. I probably got ahead of myself in terms of work that wasn't being supervised by a teacher, just have some time between jobs and have been super excited to jump in. Have lessons on Sundays and will ask about the specific technique stuff you mentioned.

[cmsanford88]

Hey Guys! Had a great class on Sunday, back to work this week so bike progress will be a lot slower. I practiced some canti bosses today tho. Still not super comfortable with brass but I felt like this one came out alright, was able to bend the heck out of it and it held tight. Anyway, more practice to come, thanks for all the insight so far.

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[cmsanford88]

Hey Guys! Been a good long minute. So I continued with lessons and lots of practice, and more or less finished the frame pictured above. It now hangs in the rafters of my garage as a harrowing reminder to be less bad, haha.

With that spirit in mind, I went ahead and built my first rider. There were plenty of starts and stops on it, went the route of "if in doubt, throw it out". I just got it back from chasing and facing this past weekend and built it up for some shakedown rides. I love it! Decided to posts some pics here of it in an unpainted state. There's plenty on it I'm pretty proud of, but a lot more that I'm itching to better on the next one. It's 8/5/8 oversided cromo from Vari-wall, with columbus sl/zona stays. Went for a rando bike that'll clear 650x42s, but with a pretty tight wheelbase. So far I enjoy the zippiness, but the long front end and big tires keep it comfortable.

Looking forward to some quality time on this frame. Thanks for all the help and I'm excited to keep going!.

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