global worry... climate change crashes into development

[bking]

There's plenty of water. It's just often in the wrong place.

Years ago, 60's and 70's I believe, Phoenix (Salt River Project) began buying out cotton farms. Cotton is water hungry and they grew a fair amount of it in the desert, of all places. Money was put away by SRP (customers) and the cotton farms were bought out while studies were done that showed there was surface water, as opposed to ground water, in Arizona to provide for about 20 million people, it just had to be brought to the right place. Here in Nevada we have the same problem, as the area grew we needed to manage our water far better than we did 10 or 15 years ago, and move water to where it's needed.

Someone mentioned Tucson above, as I recall they are or were a model of water conservation for metropolitan areas. I believe Vegas used much of their data as they worked through their conservation plan. I certainly don't know, but I'd guess they waited too long to solve a problem long in the making in S.A., as opposed to catastrophic weather changes being the cause of this crisis. As was expressed above, I can't imagine a city of that size getting their water in gallon jugs. Prohibition on steroids...my heart goes out to them.

[Matthew Strongin]

Climate change, sure, but don't ignore the white elephant in the room- over population. Over population has been much more dramatic than climate change.

Anyhow, coming soon to a location near you.

The problem with this argument is that it leads people to think we shouldn’t focus on addressing climate change since overpopulation is an issue too. They can both be problems and we should do everything we can to stem the tide of climate change whether or not there’s a white elephant hanging out in the room.

[happycampyer]

Worldwide overpopulation is the elephant in the room WRT all things. For cultural and religious reasons nobody wants to talk about it but the planet has finite resources and space.

Current human population growth is ultimately unsustainable, not because we can’t all be fed, but because of the resources we consume.

It may turn out that Malthus was right after all, he just got the resource wrong—it’s water, not food, that the population runs out of.

[Saab2000]

The problem with this argument is that it leads people to think we shouldn’t focus on addressing climate change since overpopulation is an issue too. They can both be problems and we should do everything we can to stem the tide of climate change whether or not there’s a white elephant hanging out in the room.

You can't address one without addressing the other. They are integrally linked.

Driving a Prius doesn't really mean much when there are tens of thousands of new Prius drivers entering the world every day.

[thollandpe]

While the numbers are staggering, I would posit that the number of humans is not as big a problem as the footprint that some of those humans choose to leave. The ability of some of our man-made systems to inflict suffering upon others is a huge multiplier.

Overpopulation Is Not The Problem

[Matthew Strongin]

You can't address one without addressing the other. They are integrally linked.

Driving a Prius doesn't really mean much when there are tens of thousands of new Prius drivers entering the world every day.

I agree. I’m not suggesting we ignore overpopulation. I’m suggesting we don’t resign ourselves to driving F-350 diesel dualies because there are tens of thousands of new drivers in the next generation so what’s the point. And to keep the analogy, I’d much prefer to see a modernization of our communities and companies so that daily driving is no longer considered a requirement of life and work. That would help mitigate the impact.

Looking at it from another perspective, you don’t ignore the opioid epidemic because obesity / heart disease is such a problem. Our planet is overpopulated and poisoned. We should work on both.

[Saab2000]

While the numbers are staggering, I would posit that the number of humans is not as big a problem as the footprint that some of those humans choose to leave. The ability of some of our man-made systems to inflict suffering upon others is a huge multiplier.

Overpopulation Is Not The Problem

The writer of this article cites no scientific studies to support his position. Of course, neither do I.

But we must all do with less to support more. And that's a question only we can answer individually. When many of us MAMILs were young teenagers hitting the roads for the first time (this is, after all, a cycling forum) the world's population was estimated to be HALF what it is today. That wasn't that long ago. Only a few decades, or a fraction of a fraction of a blink of an eye in scientific terms. We've been polluting the world and populating the world on a frightening scale in really only the last 150 years, out of billions.

I still posit that our current model is completely unsustainable.

[thollandpe]

Jim, meet my neighbor and co-worker Betsy. She's got an arsenal to back up her views.

The Great Distraction: ‘Overpopulation’ Is Back in Town | By Betsy Hartmann | Common Dreams

We're in agreement that we're on an unsustainable trajectory, but it's not from people making babies.

[Greg Costello]

There's plenty of water. It's just often in the wrong place.

No, there's not. The water diversions on the Colorado for instance cause it to be a dry bed before it gets to the Pacific. Ecosystems and species die because we divert water to stupid things like growing cotton in Arizona (and if you drive from Phoenix to Tucson you will see they are still there) and keeping grass green in peoples yards and golf courses and casinos throughout western cities . There is nowhere near enough water in the arid west for the human populations, the unsustainable agriculture and the rest of life. Wrong place for who?

[Clean39T]

No, there's not. The water diversions on the Colorado for instance cause it to be a dry bed before it gets to the Pacific. Ecosystems and species die because we divert water to stupid things like growing cotton in Arizona (and if you drive from Phoenix to Tucson you will see they are still there) and keeping grass green in peoples yards and golf courses and casinos throughout western cities . There is nowhere near enough water in the arid west for the human populations, the unsustainable agriculture and the rest of life. Wrong place for who?

I was unlucky enough to drive from Yuma to Phoenix via Maricopa a few years back and saw this first hand: Saudi Hay Farm In Arizona Tests State's Supply Of Groundwater : The Salt : NPR << -- there's your sign.

[vertical_doug]

While the numbers are staggering, I would posit that the number of humans is not as big a problem as the footprint that some of those humans choose to leave. The ability of some of our man-made systems to inflict suffering upon others is a huge multiplier.

Overpopulation Is Not The Problem

Since I came back from last trip to Delhi (I first went to India in 1997) , I told my lawyer that I use to think America was India's future, but now I am thinking India is our future.

'The footprint some of those humans choose to leave' probably means all of us. The funny thing about mother Nature is she doesn't much care about us, and eventually we will pay the piper.

[vertical_doug]

I was unlucky enough to drive from Yuma to Phoenix via Maricopa a few years back and saw this first hand: Saudi Hay Farm In Arizona Tests State's Supply Of Groundwater : The Salt : NPR << -- there's your sign.

They are doing something along these lines with farming in Ethiopia too.

[ides1056]

I read Cadillac Desert. It was a page-turner. It's not just the quantity of resource, but the organization or lack thereof around its use.

But for the Haber-Bosch process we would likely not be having this conversation.

Local author Alan Weisman has written a well researched book on the subject of population, entitled Countdown. Also a page turner.

The Limits of Growth, and Beyond the Limits are also excellent.

From where I sit it looks like we are turning the world into a toilet.

[mzilliox]

I dont have anything positive to add, because we are fuckups who insist on doing things our way because we think we are smarter than nature, which has the benefit of all the time in the world.
Someone says there is enough water. I agree and dont agree. If we knew how to use water, there would be enough, but we are clueless.

Lets consider California, because many people know it. lots of californians would say its a dessert there, the mediterranean climate doesn;t provide rainfall in summer blah blah blah. Ill tell you our most major fuckup, maybe worse than water. its soil! SOIL! so much would be alleviated if we only understood and respected soils more.

Surely the water issue wasn't due to massive burning of forests and grasslands, grazing of alien species like cows and sheep, replanting with european annual grasses that dont handle drought well. the animals ate the healthier native grasses leaving behind the inferior annuals to take over. their roots are not as deep, they dont hold water... they dont create more soil.
It couldn't have been from the lumber cutdowns and the mining operations which literally changed the landscape of some water ways and directly leeds to increased flooding, which doesn;t allow for water retention in the landscape.
Surely it wasn't the dams and large scale irrigation projects that ruined the wetlands by not allowing nutrient rich silt deposits to reach them, or even the fresh water they so badly need to remain healthy. we have no idea how important wetlands are. they are natures livers. and we have decided we dont need livers. idiots.
And it certainly had nothing to do with the over tillage and loss of topsoil created by annual crop growing. those organic carrots are literally creating a new dessert.

no no, its simply the climate, we absolve our human selves from any blame, you know, because it doesn't rain in the summer.

Until we shoulder the blame and account for the true costs of our activity, or we have widespread famine and disease, nothing will change.

now i need to go ride a bike so i dont just end it right now

[0nelove]

The problem with this argument is that it leads people to think we shouldn’t focus on addressing climate change since overpopulation is an issue too. They can both be problems and we should do everything we can to stem the tide of climate change whether or not there’s a white elephant hanging out in the room.

Mmm, I think you are placing a lot of projected assumptions onto a very straightforward statement.

I only said "don't ignore overpopulation." Which someone else also said (I missed it when I read through the first time, otherwise I wouldn't have made the post at all), but received no contest from you. My guess is that you are associating comments and assumptions from another thread and either consciously or subconsciously associating me with climate change denial.

They are both problems, and both must be addressed imo. Too many humans are living where too many humans should not live.

[Matthew Strongin]

Mmm, I think you are placing a lot of projected assumptions onto a very straightforward statement.

I only said "don't ignore overpopulation." Which someone else also said (I missed it when I read through the first time, otherwise I wouldn't have made the post at all), but received no contest from you. My guess is that you are associating comments and assumptions from another thread and either consciously or subconsciously associating me with climate change denial.

They are both problems, and both must be addressed imo. Too many humans are living where too many humans should not live.

Stop looking for a fight. My response was addressing your comment, "Over population has been much more dramatic than climate change" and the fact that I worry people (in the general sense, not you specifically) may resign themselves to not worrying about our impact on climate because of overpopulation. My subsequent posts should have made it clear that I don't think we should ignore either issue. I also had an exchange with Saab2000 on the topic further down the thread, so to suggest that I'm arguing with you in an unbalanced way due to some sort of bias based on a thread or exchange I don't even remember is absurd.

[0nelove]

No fight picking at all (I thought my second post was pretty benign, sorry if it was open to a hostile interpretation).

If you re-read the first page I think its pretty easy to see several other people mention the same thing, with no response other than affirmative. I was projecting assumptions onto your post to make sense of it, sorry if that's not the case.

[TMB]

The realities of a 4-million person city without water is incomprehensable. I was listening to a news show that was saying they have something like 250 water distribution spots planned...that means that someone from each family is going to go get 25 liters (maybe it was gallons?) of water per person per day. Think of what that means if you have a 4-6 person household. Think of the time spent in lines...think about how much water it takes to flush a toilet...to shower...to do anything. They were pointing out that large corporate buildings were going to need porta-potties out in the street for the workers to use...

If folks thought Syria was bad, wait until this climate change shit starts really taking off. Populations are going to migrating in the coming decades...

Instructions have already been pushed out for our people in the south of Africa offices as well as those who may be travelling there .

This is going to cost HUGE as I suspect that after about a week - telecommuting and taking turns are not going to work and people are going to end up being sent home and client commitments will be pushed ....

This will be our firm, times many ...

Economic consequences are massive.

[davids]

While the situation in Cape Town is staggeringly bad, the consequences of global climate change are being felt everywhere, now.

It seems like it was only a year or two ago that us Bostonians were being told that we'd have street flooding during big storms before the 21st century was over.
We had street flooding during a big storm in December.