Observations about the new deportation campaign

[Dallas Tex]

This is the very crux of the issue: How does one define "my people"?

My countrymen. Americans. The People of the United States. That's how I define my people in this context.

I fully expect when my country negotiates trade deals with China they do so acting 100% on the behalf the needs on the U.S. China certainly is.

Same goes for immigration. Decisions made based on what is best for the U.S.

[guido]

Don’t asume to know my “lottery” situation.

And I won’t assume the illegal immigrant owner of a Stow flight school and his 33 illegal immigrant students he was training to fly in 2011 were “ok” in your backyard.

So, I’ll ask the question: What did you think of that situation? Where you living there then?

You live in this country and you are male. That is a stupendous advantage over 95.5% percent of the worlds population and half of that 4.5% are women so you did win the lottery whether you want to admit it or not. That we have the time and opportunity to frequent websites to talk about bikes places us in an even more exclusive group.

No one is suggesting that crime is a good or desirable thing in mine or anyone's community. But illegal immigrants by no means commit the majority of crimes in the US.

But why throw up unusual obscure single cases? We are talking about the vast majority of immigrants who in most cases want to escape situations in countries where US policy contributed to their misfortune. Why do they diserve any different treatment than our forefathers?

[Corso]

You live in this country and you are male. That is a stupendous advantage over 95.5% percent of the worlds population and half of that 4.5% are women so you did win the lottery whether you want to admit it or not.

But why throw up unusual obscure single cases? We are talking about the vast majority of immigrants who in most cases want to escape situations in countries where US policy contributed to their misfortune. Why do they diserve any different treatment than out forefathers?

Ok, I’ll admit it. But I’m never going to feel guilty about something I had zero control over. My parents were not wealthy. So I guess I lost that lottery. Robert Redford looks? Nope, lost that too. The lottery argument can go on forever.

Obscure case: I wanted to ask your opinion on something close to home, you chose not to give a direct answer. So much for the “everyone wants a meaningful discussion…”

"Vast majority of illegals” : It’s not possible to make that claim. We have illegals from countries all over the world here, not just the stereotype of mexicans crossing the desert. In honor of St Paddy’s: There are an estimated 10,000 undocumented (illegal) Irish in South Boston alone. You think they came via Mexico?

I’m not heartless folks. The system needs to be revamped--to allow those in need to benefit from all the United States has to offer.
The current, as well as the past, administrations are focussing on the violent “bad” - immigrants. They hysteria scare tactics that has filtered down to the children has been pushed hard by the left. That’s unfortunate, but that’s how politics seems to work.

[j44ke]

I think immigration is a pretty convenient for keeping the constituency distracted while they get reamed by the new budget and Ryancare. I mean someone has to pack those boxes of grapefruit granny sends at Xmas every year. Just saying.

Plus Milan San Remo is on! WTF? Go watch sports on television like good capitalist pawns!

[guido]

Obscure case: I wanted to ask your opinion on something close to home, you chose not to give a direct answer. So much for the “everyone wants a meaningful discussion…”

Ok to answer your Stow question, yes I lived here at the time it happened. I vaguely remember the event getting little coverage or notice at the time, even though I eat breakfast at the restaurant at that airport where it happened at least once each weekend. But it didn't make more of an impression then or now than any bank robbing or other crime. Crime is not a good thing and it should be handled by the police. This is one of the normal functions of a normal society. But it doesn't make me want to close airports or ban private pilots. Life needs to go on in as normal a way as possible. Reasonable caution is fine. Running around with your hair on fire? Not so much. Anything else and the bad guys win.

[Corso]

Thank you for answering. I agree, crime is not a good thing, and should be handled by the police.

Funny, there is a small local airport I often ride to for breakfast also! Always good, never crowded.

[guido]

Always good, never crowded.

Lucky you! This place is usually packed...

[colker]

Insight, perhaps. As in an outsider looking in? Yes.

“Skin in the game”, No. Real American experience? No.

I’m not attacking Colker. He knows I wouldn’t do that. I’m just curious on how Colker has formed his opinion of just what defines America, and what values America should represent.

Corso.. you were not atacking me but deffending a pragmatic stance to defend your property. That´s just right as long as you balance pragmatism and ideals. My definition comes from the world wide influence America has. It comes from the influence on my upbringing, my taste, my craft.
America projects a basic hope that we can all be happy if we work hard and defend freedom, no matter where we come from: poverty or wealth. This principle is as responsible for America´s wealth as the pragmatic stance of it´s citizens. Ideas are powerfull.

[colker]

Soverign nations have borders for a reason. While I wish the best for all folks in every country, my priorities lead me to want the best for my country, my people, my society first.

Think of it as a sporting even or a business negotiation. I'm thrilled the away-team came to play. I wish no ill will on the away team. But my team is my priority, just as they're team is they're priority. As it should be.

I don't hate the family next door, but I make decisions that benefit my family first. And I expect the same from them.

Your logic is excellent except you are not english, german or french. You belong to a nation of immigrants.
Also, all americans benefit from cheap latin labour. Next they are law breakers? Not part of the team?

[MarkC]

My countrymen. Americans. The People of the United States.

Glenn,

When did "your people" come to settle in the United States? Unless one claims native American heritage, "your people" by definition emigrated from some other place and likely in fairly recent past.

My people, may family that is, came about three generations ago. One side from Ireland, the other from Canada. They settled in Southbridge Massachusetts and for locals, ended up working at the now defunct American Optical plant. You are down in Texas and I'm currently living in New Jersey. Probably very different circumstance. However, you and I are both countrymen today despite having roots to non-American soils and different paths to the country.

The relative ease with which good people come to the USA has been working out pretty well to date. We live in an amazing country with a diversity of people and North America is a nice geography in which to live. Point is that almost everyone in the USA today pretty much has roots somewhere else and our history as a country is very recent when compared to other countries.

The isolationist, protectionists, etc etc are simply drawing a line in the sand essentially saying: I got in before the gate was closed. Too bad for you, but you aren't my people.

Now having said that, there may be legitimate reasons to close the gates. Or change the way the gates operate. Just because something has worked in the past doesn't mean it is the best course for the future. Perhaps temporarily close the gates and assess the situation. Perhaps change the type of gates to reflect new circumstances. This is the mature discussion Bush, Clinton and Obama were having and trying to act on.

Its also true that even with our vast resources we cannot solve every problem across the globe. I think most people understand the sentiment when folks say: "Why are we sending money there when I see problems here that need solving"? But those are sound bites not actionable goals or strategy Bigger problems require deep thinking and then committed action - sometimes over long periods to reach a better place. The current administration is not doing or planning for any of this. They are simply saying: "People that don't look like you are bad. Hate them. Let's build walls and keep them out. They take your jobs and are bad hombres". Its like a 4th grade level civics discussion on the surface and deeper than that, a rather good cover for a different agenda that long term will not be to the benefit of the country.

With that, Glenn, must say I do admire your tenacity in taking up the discussion from a perspective that is not warmly embraced by the majority of active posters on VS. I'm a fairly conservative guy but on this topic I genuinely believe the current administration and the hate they are fomenting and the distrust of America they are engendering is genuinely disturbing and not to the benefit of our country or my people.

-Mark

[colker]

Ok, I’ll admit it. But I’m never going to feel guilty about something I had zero control over. My parents were not wealthy. So I guess I lost that lottery. Robert Redford looks? Nope, lost that too. The lottery argument can go on forever.

Obscure case: I wanted to ask your opinion on something close to home, you chose not to give a direct answer. So much for the “everyone wants a meaningful discussion…”

"Vast majority of illegals” : It’s not possible to make that claim. We have illegals from countries all over the world here, not just the stereotype of mexicans crossing the desert. In honor of St Paddy’s: There are an estimated 10,000 undocumented (illegal) Irish in South Boston alone. You think they came via Mexico?

I’m not heartless folks. The system needs to be revamped--to allow those in need to benefit from all the United States has to offer.
The current, as well as the past, administrations are focussing on the violent “bad” - immigrants. They hysteria scare tactics that has filtered down to the children has been pushed hard by the left. That’s unfortunate, but that’s how politics seems to work.

Corso.. crush those in the system who facilitate illegal work. It´s all connected: the coyotes who bring the workers in, the us business making money out of illegals. Crushing on the families is just cowardice.

[Bob Ross]

We all want a better life for our children.

While I wish the best for all folks in every country, my priorities lead me to want the best for my country, my people, my society first. ...

I think MarkC already responded to these positions clearly and articulately, but I can't not reply when I see these opinions expressed so unequivocally:

Yes, we all want a better life for our children. But when I see some of the policies enacted not just by the current administration but historically by many of the GOP administrations over the past almost 40 years, I find myself wondering "Why don't we all want a better life for other people's children?"

So much of the prioritizing, the >>my country, my people, my society [my family] first<< positions, seem to come at the expense of other people. They're not just selfish (which could be explained away via the genetic imperative), they're willfully narrow-minded/short-sighted so as to intentionally exclude the sharing of any potential benefits with non-family members.

If we were living in some primordial Stone Age I could understand that sense of competition guiding our behaviors. But civilization gave us the luxury to behave altruistically several thousand years ago.

[Dallas Tex]

Your logic is excellent except you are not english, german or french. You belong to a nation of immigrants.
Also, all americans benefit from cheap latin labour. Next they are law breakers? Not part of the team?

I'm not an immigrant, neither was my father. I'm an American, born & raised. My father's father immigrated here legally. We are not a nation of immigrants. We are a nation of Americans, brought together by basic shared values: Freedom, Private Property Ownership, Rule of Law, Work Ethic, Self Determination. etc.

If you think the only thing folks that come here illegally from latin America bring is cheap labor you are dead wrong. As someone living in a border state I interact with these folks daily and I see how there presence affects our society up close & personal.

Please realize they also bring their optimism, their love of family, their willingness to help out a neighbor, their work ethic, and most importantly their love of 'America' and its freedoms that lets them to strive & achieve. Now I hate to make huge generalizations about an entire group of folks but I just did....based on my first hand anecdotal experience.

With that said, illegal immigration circumvents the entire screening process etc. Folks must come here legally and our country has every right to enforce its borders as any country does. And that's a view shared by Americans of many different heritages.

Politics in America sucks, its all 0 or 1. Red or Blue. Us or Them. All immigrants are awful OR all immigrants are great. And that has prevented us from implementing a reality based immigration system.

No citizen of another country has 'right' to come into our country and stay without screening & processing.

This process has been ignored by presidents from both parties for years. At least the current administration is making efforts to acknowledge and correct this sham.

[colker]

I'm not an immigrant, neither was my father. I'm an American, born & raised. My father's father immigrated here legally. We are not a nation of immigrants. We are a nation of Americans, brought together by basic shared values: Freedom, Private Property Ownership, Rule of Law, Work Ethic, Self Determination. etc.

If you think the only thing folks that come here illegally from latin America bring is cheap labor you are dead wrong. As someone living in a border state I interact with these folks daily and I see how there presence affects our society up close & personal.

Please realize they also bring their optimism, their love of family, their willingness to help out a neighbor, their work ethic, and most importantly their love of 'America' and its freedoms that lets them to strive & achieve. Now I hate to make huge generalizations about an entire group of folks but I just did....based on my first hand anecdotal experience.

With that said, illegal immigration circumvents the entire screening process etc. Folks must come here legally and our country has every right to enforce its borders as any country does. And that's a view shared by Americans of many different heritages.

Politics in America sucks, its all 0 or 1. Red or Blue. Us or Them. All immigrants are awful OR all immigrants are great. And that has prevented us from implementing a reality based immigration system.

No citizen of another country has 'right' to come into our country and stay without screening & processing.

This process has been ignored by presidents from both parties for years. At least the current administration is making efforts to acknowledge and correct this sham.

Everybody talks about the individuals coming in illegally and you are forced to side w/ the law or those individuals. Let´s remember illegal immigration is a business operated by folks in America and Mexico. Maybe in Syria and elsewhere. Crush that illegal business which profits on people´s miseries and keep the legal immigration open for those who want to work hard for a better life.

[Dallas Tex]

So much of the prioritizing, the >>my country, my people, my society [my family] first<< positions, seem to come at the expense of other people. They're not just selfish (which could be explained away via the genetic imperative), they're willfully narrow-minded/short-sighted so as to intentionally exclude the sharing of any potential benefits with non-family members.
.

Bob, this may come across as snarky but it sincerely is not meant that way. Assuming you have kids, when you were saving money for their education did you put an equal amount in a fund for the neighbor's kid down the street? When you bought your wife a car did you buy her a safe reliable vehicle or did you buy two junkers so that you could give one to the lady across the street? Do you have a homeless person or two sharing your living space? Or.......do your needs and the needs of your family come first?

[j44ke]

What are people here actually getting out of this thread? There have been others like them here and they seem infinite. I've commented in them, but I doubt I've added anything to them and I am not particularly proud of that. In the end, all that's left to admire is other's stamina here for finding endless ways to not be spiteful but or be sincere but or sure you mean well but, etc. etc. etc. I am sure each person's life experience here has qualified them to express a handful of principles that are irrefutable, but I'd say at this point, everyone has used their's up by now. It all just starts to sound like a bunch of blah blah blah, and not a single one of us is going to have any sort of influence on the politics of this nation one way or another by typing things into this forum.

There, I said it. Flame the fck out of me. Then maybe take up a hobby like cycling or something.

[Corso]

Corso.. crush those in the system who facilitate illegal work. It´s all connected: the coyotes who bring the workers in, the us business making money out of illegals. Crushing on the families is just cowardice.

I don’t call calling law breakers criminals cowardice. You can put up a photo of a 12 year old mexican girl, and say “this is who you call a criminal”, or you can post an inked up 33 year old gang banger whose been deported multiple times, use the same caption. The left sees the girl, the right the gangsta. Both technically are breaking the law, if here illegally.

Yes, Employers who take advantage of the situation are indeed at fault. On the other hand, If I were to say “DO NOT HIRE ANYONE UNDOCUMENTED”, the anticipated response from my left leaning friends would be “You’re denying hard workers from feeding thier children, cold hearted hater, etc, etc”...

Anyhow, yes let us look at the labor problem in this country. Lower end pay scale jobs are filled by illegals. A grand blanket statement, yes, but that’s what we keep hearing.

Ever wonder why? Could it be the american welfare state has become dependent on social service money, that they don’t WANT to work, as it’s easier to stay at home and collect a check. The welfare system was originally developed to help people get back on their feet, not become a “job” for generations of families.

I’m not saying every person collecting aide doesn’t deserve or need it, but surely, out of the millions, there are some who simply do not want to work---and have zero incentive to do so.

Or could it be that our population “looks down” on those low level jobs, and the social media centered nation says “you’re better than that job”…

Or have simply over educated the population? Too many with higher education degrees? I speak with several newly minted college grads who can’t put together a focused thought. But they have that degree.

Maybe a combination of all, maybe it’s something else.

WE have created a multi-faceted mess. The only way to solve such a giant problem is for politicians to work together, but unfortunately, they are solidly us/vs them.

[Corso]

What are people here actually getting out of this thread? There have been others like them here and they seem infinite. I've commented in them, but I doubt I've added anything to them and I am not particularly proud of that. In the end, all that's left to admire is other's stamina here for finding endless ways to not be spiteful but or be sincere but or sure you mean well but, etc. etc. etc. I am sure each person's life experience here has qualified them to express a handful of principles that are irrefutable, but I'd say at this point, everyone has used their's up by now. It all just starts to sound like a bunch of blah blah blah, and not a single one of us is going to have any sort of influence on the politics of this nation one way or another by typing things into this forum.

There, I said it. Flame the fck out of me. Then maybe take up a hobby like cycling or something.

What Jake said. My last response was in before I read this. If I had seen this first, I would have stopped. Like I am now.

Thanks Jake. No flame from me!

[Matthew Strongin]

If you think the only thing folks that come here illegally from latin America bring is cheap labor you are dead wrong. As someone living in a border state I interact with these folks daily and I see how there presence affects our society up close & personal.

I'm curious to hear more about what you observe as far as how the presence of illegal immigrants affects your community. And, while I'm confident my views on this subject are fairly different from yours, I'm not coming from that angle. I'm curious as a member of a different immigrant heavy community and I often struggle with my own complex feelings on this complex matter. For some quick background, my family has been in Miami for a couple generations. I was born and raised here. Despite all the privilege that comes with being a US born white male, I was always acutely aware of how my non-hispanic family was in the minority (a substantial minority at that). In fact, even today the overwhelming majority of my close friends and people I care deeply about immigrated here. My wife's family has been here for almost 100 years and literally helped build the city. I have generations of anecdotes about how the influx of Caribbean and Latin American immigrants (many illegal) helped turn Miami from a Podunk seaside town to a thriving city in one of the most highly populated counties in the US. But I also know that even within my own city I live in a bubble. Most of us do. And when I leave that bubble even my home town can feel strange and foreign. So, if you're willing to share, I'd be curious to hear more about the impacts you've seen in your community. In mine the positive has outweighed the negative significantly, but that's just one point of view from one city in this diverse country.

[PDAR]

The article says the tactic was used before, was stopped after criticism in 2013, and now renewed under the new administration.