Talk to me about copper cookware

[spopepro]

Paging coppercook.

Recently while whipping up some red snapper à la grenobloise in the same aluminum pan I've used since I was an undergraduate it occurred to me that I'd enjoy something a little nicer, and that I'm never going to wear out a 6ga aluminum pan designed for high volume kitchen abuse. So, I'd like to upgrade some of my stuff, but my only experience has been in high-volume, low-skill kinds of places (kept my bank account black while in school), and so I got that same stuff for at home and all I've ever used was thick gauge aluminum and a couple of hand-me-down stainless pieces of junk. I have no idea what's good, or what I'd probably like.

I'm leaning towards picking up some tinned copper stuff. Probably a splayed sauce pan and a larger saute pan. My worry is the melting point and durability of tin. The internet seems to be high on opinion and low on fact and experience. I'm no reenactment enthusiast, so if modern stuff outperforms the traditional, let me know. So who's using copper (or something else you're excited about) and what do I need to know?

[echelon_john]

Maybe off-topic, but we've had a lot of cookware, including copper core & full copper.

Hands down, the best $ we've spent on kitchen stuff in the last few years is on the Mauviel 1830 series. We have 8" and 14" skillets, depending whether we're doing two eggs or 8... ; )

It's not non-stick per se, but has developed the best non-stick patina of any cookware we've owned. I'm really blown away by it, and reach for it first every single time unless I need the heat-holding properties of cast iron. And it's cheap enough that you can try it, see for yourself, and give it to me if you don't like it!

Link here:
Mauviel M'steel Carbon Steel Skillet, 8-inch | cutleryandmore.com

[ericpmoss]

I spent a metric shit-ton on several brands and types of copperware. All of the 'serious' stuff is good -- Mauviel, Bourgeat, Brooklyn Copper, Duparquet, etc, but some pieces stand out.

The tin-lined is certainly efficient heat-wise, but I had a sauce pan need re-tinning twice in a year just from maybe salt or maybe tomato -- though I never leave food in it, and NEVER let it boil dry. I won't buy any more of it because there are some stainless-lined copper pots and pans that are just too good to put up with the tin hassle.

Here are my favorites (though since I don't eat meat, I can't say much about stock pots:

BOURGEAT COPPER FLARED SAUTE PAN WITH LID | Matfer Bourgeat USA baking utensils There is literally nothing I can say negative about this thing. Glorious.

ANY Atelier du Cuivre stainless-lined sauce pan. They don't have nice pouring lips, BUT, there are no internal rivets. The small one is the best thing in the world for caramelizing sugar, making oatmeal, or making one serving of a sauce. And if you want to sear meat, their silver-lined pans let you get to brutal temps very quickly. They also have detachable handles and rivet-less interiors. Except for the one Bourgeat pan, I'd gladly toss anything else I own to get more of the Atelier silver or stainless lined copper.

[spopepro]

I spent a metric shit-ton on several brands and types of copperware. All of the 'serious' stuff is good -- Mauviel, Bourgeat, Brooklyn Copper, Duparquet, etc, but some pieces stand out.

The tin-lined is certainly efficient heat-wise, but I had a sauce pan need re-tinning twice in a year just from maybe salt or maybe tomato -- though I never leave food in it, and NEVER let it boil dry. I won't buy any more of it because there are some stainless-lined copper pots and pans that are just too good to put up with the tin hassle.

Here are my favorites (though since I don't eat meat, I can't say much about stock pots:

BOURGEAT COPPER FLARED SAUTE PAN WITH LID | Matfer Bourgeat USA baking utensils There is literally nothing I can say negative about this thing. Glorious.

ANY Atelier du Cuivre stainless-lined sauce pan. They don't have nice pouring lips, BUT, there are no internal rivets. The small one is the best thing in the world for caramelizing sugar, making oatmeal, or making one serving of a sauce. And if you want to sear meat, their silver-lined pans let you get to brutal temps very quickly. They also have detachable handles and rivet-less interiors. Except for the one Bourgeat pan, I'd gladly toss anything else I own to get more of the Atelier silver or stainless lined copper.

Have you used the silver? It makes perfect sense in a lot of ways for the purpose, but I wonder slightly about something that reactive.

[UnfilteredDregs]

My Mauviel M'Heritage M250C is the absolute Ferrari of all my pans...nothing seemingly gets as hot, as quickly, and reacts to changes of the heat as fast...simply superb. Treat yourself to one...

On another note do not overlook De'Buyer Carbon Steel Pans...they require a more careful care & use regimen but cook easily as well as the best copper at a fraction of the cost. They are my go to day to day pans.

Welcome to de Buyer | de Buyer

[Cookietruck]

the de buyer carbon steel pans are basically what you would use instead of cast iron, also, it is a very heavy pan.
i don't use our cast iron much at all since getting a large debuyer carbon steel pan. i much prefer the sloped sides of the debuyer over my vintage stuff because i can flip stuff in the debuyer whereas i have to stir stuff in the cast iron...

we recently bought two all clad stainless skillets, french style. they are pretty awesome...when i started typing this i was thinking they were copper core, but after lookin them up i see they are aluminium and stainless coore...they still get very hot, and heat and cool quick so i will leave this...
All-Clad d5 Stainless-Steel French Skillets | Williams-Sonoma

[ericpmoss]

Have you used the silver? It makes perfect sense in a lot of ways for the purpose, but I wonder slightly about something that reactive.

Yes. Sadly it loses the beauty after the first use, but it's still great for the sear -- the silver doesn't chip off like the tin can. It is far from non-stick, but does ok (as in way better than All Clad stainless) as long as there is a film of oil. At least there's no need for a sea of oil. It's a no-go on induction, ok on electric, but really meant for gas -- the pans come perfectly flat on the bottom, but after all the heating cycles, it can end up not contacting all the coils evenly. The main things to avoid are acid (e.g tomato sauce) and metal utensils. The tomatos just discolor it, but the metal to metal leaves scratches that you can feel. Stick with wood and nylon or silicone spatulas and silicone-covered tongs for turning meat.

[spopepro]

So here's the thing I don't understand: why is stainless inside of copper a thing? Yeah, copper is very conductive, but steel isn't. Yes, you can make steel thin, but there's limits. To the best that I can tell, the thinnest lining you can get without risking deformation is around .5mm. So thermodynamics aren't my thing, but if my math is right: assuming a surface area of .0615 sq m (nominal 28cm diameter circle), and a thickness of .5mm, stainless has a conductivity factor of around 18 W/mC, which means that for 1 degree C temperature difference between hot and cold sides, it's transferring 1230 watts. My 6ga aluminum (4.115mm) with a factor of 220 is moving 1826 W.

Sure, stainless lined copper is better than the primarily stainless stuff, but it seems like it doesn't outperform aluminum, and is a bit of a waste of the copper. Looks good though.

[caleb]

I'd gladly toss anything else I own to get more of the Atelier silver or stainless lined copper.

Any longer-term review on the Atelier du Cuivre stuff? I need a frying pan, and their 26cm looks looks like it might work.



Also, where did you get yours? Their website appears a bit rudimentary, and the translation appears to be for women's clothing: Atelier

[ericpmoss]

Yeah, their website has sucked from day 1, but at least one person there speaks English and can fill in the gaps. I emailed them (now they have some portal for contacting), and they helped put together my order, including engraving and so forth.

My longer term review:

(1) The tin-lined pans work fine, but seem to need re-tinning after a short while. Could be user error.

(2) The stainless ("Inox") lined sauce pans are super awesome in every regard other than lacking a pouring lip. I gladly put up with the (frankly undetectable) last bit of heat conductivity compared to tin-lined. I'd only get a stainless lined skillet for searing and deglazing, not frying eggs/pancakes -- other surfaces are better for that.

(3) the silver-lined fryers are tougher than tin-lined, for sure, but still really require a seasoning layer to build up. Once that's done, they are just as good as a BluSkillet results-wise, the trade-offs being: the Atelier pan is WAY lighter and offers a detachable handle so you can fit it in the oven; the Atelier pan has no rivet in the interior (yay); the Altelier pan's lining is susceptible to damage, but if you build seasoning up carefully and don't hammer off fond with a chisel, it's gonna be safe; the Atelier pan heats faster and cools faster so you can have a bit more chance of saving something that's getting too brown; the BluSkillet looks 100x better with its seasoning -- maybe even better than when new.

[caleb]

That's all really helpful, Eric. Thanks.

I'm in a bit of a conundrum. This pan will primarily be used by my wife given that it'll live in Minnesota, and she's not comfortable with anything that is seasoned and shouldn't be washed with soap. I think her Presbyterian upbringing demands that she use soap to wash away the oil, germs, dirt, and sin. BTW, she could care less about what pan is in the cupboard, and if left to her own devices would probably just buy a teflon-coated one from the baking aisle in the grocery store.

Although it goes against most of my inclinations about cookware, I'm actually thinking of getting one with a non-Teflon (and other bad stuff) nonstick coating. Something like Mauviel's M'Cook nonstick: Mauviel M'Cook Onyx Nonstick Fry Pan | Williams Sonoma

I like how the M'Cook stuff I've used has cooked. Even if the nonstick coating only lasts five years, and it doesn't kill us in the process, maybe it would be worth it.

[caleb]

Yeah, their website has sucked from day 1, but at least one person there speaks English and can fill in the gaps. I emailed them (now they have some portal for contacting), and they helped put together my order, including engraving and so forth.

Thanks. I emailed them this morning about getting a 26cm frying pan to start. If shipping isn't crazy, I'll probably give it a try.

My only real concern is that I think I've bought a pan, and a copper bathtub shows up. Which might not be all bad.

[caleb]

Yeah, their website has sucked from day 1, but at least one person there speaks English and can fill in the gaps. I emailed them (now they have some portal for contacting), and they helped put together my order, including engraving and so forth.

Any chance you still have the email address you used? I've tried both the email they have on their website and the one on Facebook without any response.

[spopepro]

The story goes: I was intrigued by the mention of the atlier du cuivre silver lined stuff. Silver conducts heat even better than copper, is mostly non-reactive, and should be much more durable than tin. I was trying to do research to find out what the details were about silver as a cooking surface (spoiler: there is almost no credible information out there) and I came across another company making silver lined copper cookware... in Turkey. Now, as a musician, I have a ton of respect for the copper alloy works in Istanbul and the company seems to use knowledgeable labor and pay them well. I liked the hammered finish, the sculpting of the cast bronze handle and the slightly flared edge. The company is Soy Turkiye: http://www.soy.com.tr Kuku sazbi is the plan for tonight.

[Too Tall]

Friggin' gorgeous pans.

[Noteddy]

If Campagnolo made cookware...

It would cost more than those. Nice stuff.

[ericpmoss]

Friggin' gorgeous pans.

No kidding. Those are far more artful than the Atelier du Cuivre. I still like the hidden rivets, but man, that hammered finish is stellar.

[spopepro]

Ok, so having used the stuff for a little while here are my thoughts:

-holy shit this stuff is heavy. Some of it is the thick copper, some of it is the cast bronze handles, but it is a workout to move.

-Heat changes happen relatively quickly, but the mass means that it heats up kind of slow. I think my aluminum pan reaches heat more quickly, but once the pan is hot, it's almost instant for temp changes.

-Silver is more non-stick than I though. I've twice cooked eggs in it. Once was a flat omelet that didn't stick at all (!), and I did a big scramble of mushrooms, negi, parsley, and eggs and that stuck a little. But it was still really easy to clean. The floured and pan fried fish didn't stick at all.

-Almost all food makes the silver a little cloudy, but only eggs seem to really make dark tarnish. I haven't cooked a ton of onions which might also do the same, but it makes sense, eggs have lots of sulfur. But it does tarnish a little slower than I anticipated.

-Polishing is not a problem. The mauviel copperbril works beautifully. The blitz silver polish I have also is perfect.

So, I'm happy. I probably want one more piece, a larger saucepan. I'm debating whether to get another one from Soy, or if a stainless lined version is a better call for a pan that will likely see longer cooktimes with more reactive foods.

[caleb]

So, I'm happy. I probably want one more piece, a larger saucepan.

Is the one in your earlier picture a 16cm, or 20cm?

[Shinomaster]

The story goes: I was intrigued by the mention of the atlier du cuivre silver lined stuff. Silver conducts heat even better than copper, is mostly non-reactive, and should be much more durable than tin. I was trying to do research to find out what the details were about silver as a cooking surface (spoiler: there is almost no credible information out there) and I came across another company making silver lined copper cookware... in Turkey. Now, as a musician, I have a ton of respect for the copper alloy works in Istanbul and the company seems to use knowledgeable labor and pay them well. I liked the hammered finish, the sculpting of the cast bronze handle and the slightly flared edge. The company is Soy Turkiye: Soy Türkiye, High Quality Copper Culinary Equipment Kuku sazbi is the plan for tonight.

Those are gorgeous. My mom has a bunch of old Turkish copper pans but they are all tinned. They tend to be pretty lightweight with non traditional shapes ( for us westerners).