Seat tube distortion...

[ulrich vogel]

The thread seems to have gone off in a tangent.

???

1) Preheat the entire joint. Take your time and don’t be in a hurry to lay down the fillet. By heating the entire joint you minimize the amount of distortion of the tubes. This is very important on head tubes and BB’s where ovalizing can cause real issues in machining. I heat the bottom of the BB and the front of the head tube just as much as the part I’m laying the fillet on. This will make your life much easier down the road.
2) “Tin” the joint. This is in effect tacking the entire joint. This is the real structure of the fillet and will make sure that the bike is still together after your death. Tin it well and flow brass into the joint evenly all round.
3) Once the joint is tinned I start laying the fillets. Turn the torch way, way down. I use a flame that is about the same size as I use doing bottle bosses. Small. When laying the fillet ALWAYS work away from the torch. I’m right handed and hold the torch in my right hand……….so I work from right to left. This will assure that you are preheating the spot you want to lay down the next bead of fillet and also make sure you aren’t melting the stuff you just put down. This is super important to me. Lay the fillet in beads like a TIG welder does. Overlapping beads. If the fillet starts to get away from you and is getting sloppy back off and let it cool some. Do not rush. Back off and take a few long breaths before going back in. It will still be there. The few seconds of time this cost you here will save you hours later in finish work. Go slow.
4) Do everything you can to NOT go back over the work to reheat and smooth things out. This can get away from you in a hurry and you’ll end up with the fillet on your foot.
5) I have the frame in a Park stand so I can rotate it and get the angle I want for each bead. Take the time to get the frame is a good position. Do not try to work around a corner. Take you time and move the frame so you can get at it properly. See the trend?……..take your time.

Keith Bontragers article is about heat and its effects.

Read it, try to understand and practice.

[phutphutend]

Pre-heat = bring the whole joint up to the flux's active temp. Go back and re-read Steve's process description.

Apply flux several inches past the joint and get it all nice and glassy, then dive into the joint and get the metal up to brazing temp any lay your fillets.

Thank you. This is the kind of information I was after.

I'll do some test joints after Christmas and post up the results.

[hmbatrail]

Joe,
I mean with this no disrespect and with full sincerity, but until you can answer these questions instead of ask them are you sure you want to be selling frames to the public?

[phutphutend]

This is the only issue have. Once this is resolved. I'm happy to sell.

My customers are aware of the 'prototype' nature of my frames. They are being sold at reduced prices because of this. As long as I manage people's expectations, there should be no issues.


I have ridden several versions of my frames hard with no structural issues.

[Eric Estlund]

Would there be issues in continuing to make early examples for yourself then turning to selling when you have a final, ready for market product?

This isn't directed a Joe- I get the sense he's made up his mind.

Earlier someone commented to the effect "it's just sticking tubes together" and then also mentioned the "low bar of entry". The bar is the one we hold ourselves and each other to. I think we do ourselves a disservice to down play any one aspect of the profession (sticking tubes together) while casually ignoring that any one aspect of proficiency is at the mercy of any one skills relative deficiency.

In addition to selling a commodity we are selling road (and off road) vehicles- there needs to be a seriousness too this. How many of us would feel comfortable welding up a car frame after taking a weekend class and then sending someone out to drive the alpine passes? That is a reductive argument, I know- but if one purports to be serious about this endeavor, even as a serious hobbyist (which goes out the window as soon as someone else jumps on one of your bikes) then one needs to put in the time (and money) to work the fundamentals and the next level skill sets in addition to approaching design, fit, customer interaction, etc.

Stay safe, have fun, and do good works.

[Eric Estlund]

I will also acknowledge that this thread does show a certain level of frustration from some of the folks that have been around a bit. I'll include myself in that. Much of the information shared here has been shared, repeated and linked to numerous times. In addition to this forum there is a wealth of information (much from the same voices) at every corner of the collective internets frame building corners. The frustration doesn't come from repeating the advice, it comes from hoping folks would dig deeper and be self directed in their education.

While I'm less likely to answer "How do I fix X", I am very likley to engage in a conversation "I am having X problem: I read what so and so said, tried it, and had these results. I tried a few other things (1,2,3) and would like some suggestions on how to refine X from here".

That might sound curmudgeonly, and maybe it is- but as a room full of self starting loaners my experience tells me effort and scholarship are rewarded.

[mmoore]

To take this to another level, would someone doing thin walled TIG be able to pre-heat the back of a tube, or is it more desireable to have heatsyncs for tig?

My frame I did I didn't pre-heat or use heatsyncs and the English bb shell was a bit oval. I did get full penetration in the welds too, and the bb joint in this case had the 2 chainstay, the boom tube, the lateral bar and the seat tube. (this was aluminum)

[steve garro]

I will also acknowledge that this thread does show a certain level of frustration from some of the folks that have been around a bit. I'll include myself in that. Much of the information shared here has been shared, repeated and linked to numerous times. In addition to this forum there is a wealth of information (much from the same voices) at every corner of the collective internets frame building corners. The frustration doesn't come from repeating the advice, it comes from hoping folks would dig deeper and be self directed in their education.

While I'm less likely to answer "How do I fix X", I am very likley to engage in a conversation "I am having X problem: I read what so and so said, tried it, and had these results. I tried a few other things (1,2,3) and would like some suggestions on how to refine X from here".

That might sound curmudgeonly, and maybe it is- but as a room full of self starting loaners my experience tells me effort and scholarship are rewarded.

Rody:

Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Creating the spine of the frame...

Myself:

coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: Building a mountain bike Coconino style.



- Garro.

[Dallas Tex]

Friend, please keep an open mind & listen to some things. Nothing you read on this forum should be taken personal. Folks are simply trying to help you and others.

This is the only issue have. Once this is resolved. I'm happy to sell.

Having this 'one' issue is indicative that you may have many other issues that you aren't aware of.

My customers are aware of the 'prototype' nature of my frames. They are being sold at reduced prices because of this. As long as I manage people's expectations, there should be no issues.

How aware are they? They are relying on you to make them aware, and there are most definitely many things that you are not aware of. "Managing customer expectations" doesn't begin to address the trust a person puts in someone that has manufactured their bike.

The public will rely on you to be the prudent expert in this area. just because someone says "I know I understand", does not ensure that they do know & do understand.

I have ridden several versions of my frames hard with no structural issues.

No structural issues....yet. The fact that something holds together for a year or so, in no way ensures that it will have no structural problems during its full expected service lifecycle.

Joe, I appreciate you listening with an open mind. One more question, are you insured for liability on these products?

Thanks

[Doug Fattic]

Joe, I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for nearly 40 years. From 2nd hand sources I understand the Bicycle Academy has the right philosophy of how to teach but don't know them personally or anything specifically about their methods. I know there can often be a big loss remembering what was learned when trying to do it again. Good classes provide ways to compensate for that. What did they provide to help you repeat the process later? Relying on memory alone is pretty iffy. Is it possible that in their handouts or your notes you can find more detailed information on how to fillet braze a joint without distorting the tubes and still keep the frame in alignment? Things that were covered in class and you just need to jog your memory? Also what is their policy on asking them questions after class is over? I do a lot of that. Maybe they do too.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[shand]

This is the only issue have.

Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don't know how to pre-heat a tube, this isn't the only issue you have.

Once this is resolved. I'm happy to sell.

Yes, I'll bet you are :-(

[crumpton]

i made leaps and bounds in progress the day i accepted what i didn't know.

translation

there are 2 types of builders in the thread,

those that know what they don't know

those that don't know what the don't know.

[christo]

If I may give a perspective from an hobbyist on the other side of the ocean : here in France, a pro framebuilder will never ever share his expertise on the internet. One of the consequence is that framebuilding in France is getting lost, the knowledge is slowly disappearing and there is no succession for the rare established builders.

That is why I strongly believe that having guys like Garro, Sachs, Fattic, Bohm and all the others (sorry, Maestros, the list is way too long) sharing their experience and giving directions to hobbyists and even to potential competitors is of the greatest value. And it is surprising to see that eventhough the question was asked 10000 times already, they keep on providing answers.As Aimar said somewhere, those comments should be taken as a gift, not as a personal offense or whatever.

My ony little concern is that sometimes the wording is a little obscure to me and even the best English/French dictionnary doesn't help . For example I can hardly get what Garro means by "Don't "rob" your puddles". And I often scratch my head when reading Monsieur Sachs. But this is my only complain, and after it is a good way for me to raise the bar for my english skills.

Happy Christmas to all

Christophe

[steve garro]

what Garro means by "Don't "rob" your puddles".

Christophe

This:

You have a frozen puddle, and you are focusing your flame for the next puddle, but your filler is not poised, so the 1st puddle rushes into the 2nd, making you think you have two dimes, but you have a void & a puddle, and if you don't let it freeze each time into a little dam, your filler will just follow your flame all around, leaving you a meager fillet - there is an advanced method that goes beyond stacking dimes, but that's not what you should go for 1st.


- Garro.

[nash]

These threads are a great and informative read even for someone who has never picked up a torch. Both from a material perspective and cultural one. I hope to start taking classes in welding someday and it's just really cool to hear all you guys talk. I don't know if I will ever build bikes but maybe!

Just saying thanks to the pros who share here. It's really inspiring.

[Rayburn Shaun]

I'd also like to thank the professionals who took the time to respond here. Certainly all of us here on the forum are grateful for your sharing of knowledge and wisdom.

Any way this could be a sticky in the "Knowledge" subforum?

Many thanks guys!

[Alistair]

This:

You have a frozen puddle, and you are focusing your flame for the next puddle, but your filler is not poised, so the 1st puddle rushes into the 2nd, making you think you have two dimes, but you have a void & a puddle, and if you don't let it freeze each time into a little dam, your filler will just follow your flame all around, leaving you a meager fillet - there is an advanced method that goes beyond stacking dimes, but that's not what you should go for 1st.


- Garro.

Hey Steve,

firstly, thanks as always for your generosity in sharing your knowledge. Secondly, those fillets of yours that you linked to are outrageously good. Amazing really.

I've had glimpses, where everything was flowing just right and I felt like I was "in the pocket", getting something resembling what your pictures show. Have I been able to maintain it though, for a full fillet? No, no I have not, but the hope that one day I could get there is what draws me forward, and keeps me practicing so again, thanks for giving me something to shoot for.

You mention that "there is an advanced method" and I'm wondering if that has anything to do with laying brass in a kind of sweeping motion, from the unmitered tube to the mitered tube, perpendicular to the seam of the miter? I've messed around with this and had some success. I think I remember it being discussed on the old email list serve framebuilders group some years ago. Is this a technique that you use?

Thanks,


Alistair.

[steve garro]

IMG_0289.JPG

See, each of those lines is where the operator has taken the filler from a liquid to to solid state, moved, and the formed another puddle, then freeze, the move, the melt & add - repeat - while also feeding the same length or amount of rod every time for a consistent width ('fillet' come from French for 'ribbon') while maintaining even heat, seen by the edges that feather to almost a molecular edge and the lack of charring, burning, or porosities.

The flux is an even clear, showing a thorough pre-heat - the flux is tuned to your filler, it goes clear at the temp where you are to begin feeding your filler metal, and chars when it's too hot - it also promotes the flowing of metal into the joint through capillary action (the propensity of liquids to fill small spaces, especially when heated) and is a shield against oxidation - this is all the condensed version -

"Flux is your friend"

Follow the flux - watch it, not the color = flux don't lie.

With the alloy I use your window between solid and liquid is 30*F!

And you are controlling that with a torch that can be 6000*F!

Just some insight

- Garro.

[steve garro]

You mention that "there is an advanced method"


Alistair.

https://www.instagram.com/p/4xK7Gjm0...winterbicycles


Yes, like this fine example from Winter Cycles - beyond dimes


- Garro.

[Eric Estlund]

Thanks, Steve-

When my game is on I like to walk the line of viscosity and keep it all in motion. Or at least try. Every one is an attempt to get better, I guess.



Pardon the size on this one- it's a laminated head tube out of soak and with the flux brushed (but before finishing). Really trying to flat the filler and feather the edges. One pass.