How many framebuilders would do production work?

[incepi]

By production I mean producing frames in batches, either under their own name, or under a brand name.

I remember in the 1990s KONA offered a frame called the Hot. It was basically a KONA Explosif, but made by a custom builder. I believe Tom Teesdale was the main producer. Hundreds of these were made.

The Hot had the same geometry and tube set as an Explosif. The buyer could only select a custom color. The buyer benefitted from knowing that the frame was assembled by an expert builder.

I know there are many examples of sponsored teams riding frames that were not built in the factory. They were built by custom builders, often anonymously.

Would many custom builders do this type of semi production work, or has the culture changed to the point where nobody would want to(or admit to) doing work on this basis?

[EricKeller]

since I once did production work, at a factory, I have thought about this. I probably would if I were building frames for money. I imagine it's not easy to do and still make money. Not sure how many customer there really are out there for this sort of thing though, they are going to go after an experienced builder, I imagine.

[jon_norstog]

I've done that, mainly with BMX and mountain bikes. It really speeds things up if you are doing tube mitering in batches, and sometimes I'll just do that, cut the main tubes, bend, miter and assemble the stay sets, then bag them and store them for future assembly. I did find that building five identical bikes is a good way to end up with a lot of unsold bikes hanging around.

jn

"Thursday"

PS FWIW, Eric Estlund is doing batches at his shop in Springfield, OR.

[Eric Estlund]

Haha- yup. Sell them first, then build them.

Also- what I'd doing I would consider small batch, which I choose to differentiate from "production" (which I've also done, at both stock and custom levels).

[Eric Estlund]

By production I mean producing frames in batches, either under their own name, or under a brand name.

Happens all the time.

I know there are many examples of sponsored teams riding frames that were not built in the factory. They were built by custom builders, often anonymously.

I know of custom builders team(s) bikes built in a local factory, too. I also know the factory folks who put them together (often anonymously).

Would many custom builders do this type of semi production work, or has the culture changed to the point where nobody would want to(or admit to) doing work on this basis?

Some do (many is hard to quantify). Your wording seems to indicate a value judgment. Anyone doing honest work making quality bikes shouldn't feel they have to "admit" to anything. Choosing to take on batch work for your own product line, or contract work for another line is a business decision, not an ethical quandary.

[incepi]

I did find that building five identical bikes is a good way to end up with a lot of unsold bikes hanging around.

What if the frames were all sold and paid for in advance? There are a few successful Kickstarter campaigns that offered bicycles. Some of them were not particularly unique or original. A custom builder(or group of builders) could offer a frame in a few different sizes, with fixed geometry and tubing. If the campaign succeeds, there would be certainty with regards to payment, and no surplus afterwards.

For example:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...le/description

This particular campaign sold almost fifty frames. They were made in a factory in Taiwan. The same thing could be done with frames built by a custom builder instead.

[Eric Estlund]

Eric, what are you asking?

All of this is well and dandy in theory, but the numbers need to add up to make it work for a business.

[incepi]

Your wording seems to indicate a value judgment. Anyone doing honest work making quality bikes shouldn't feel they have to "admit" to anything. Choosing to take on batch work for your own product line, or contract work for another line is a business decision, not an ethical quandary.

I have no issues with independent builders doing production or small batch work. I think it's very sensible and pragmatic. I can imagine that it might be a relief from constantly dealing with clients' requirements one by one.

[incepi]

Eric, what are you asking?

All of this is well and dandy in theory, but the numbers need to add up to make it work for a business.

I am just wondering if there is a place in the market for this approach. The Kickstarter example(one of many) I posted shows that it can be viable with outsourced frames.

[Eric Estlund]

Yup, there are lots of nooks and crannies in the bike biz.

[Albie]

I worked for a few years building about 90% mass production level BMX frames, bars, and cranks for both our house brand and about ten other brands.

We would work anywhere from batches of 5 to about 200 at a time, usually breaking it up into 3 to 5 different top tube lengths (the preferred measurement of BMX frames) in any given run. Depending on the material used, (a lot of frames were built with straight gauge .035" or .049" chromoly front triangles) we would chop our main tubes to size, bend to rear end pieces (also straight gauge chromoly), and setup for mitering everything on two vertical mills. After all of that, everything would be racked and ready to weld.

With four to five people on the floor, we could manage the latter amount in a little over a month.

It was tough at times when you rely on sheer numbers to make a profit, but nonetheless still a good learning experience.

[Moke]

I have a Fuji track bike made and painted by Mr. Kellogg.Made for a guy that has been around the oval a couple times when he was a Jr. Probably the nicest steel Fuji ever.

[incepi]

I worked for a few years building about 90% mass production level BMX frames, bars, and cranks for both our house brand and about ten other brands.

We would work anywhere from batches of 5 to about 200 at a time, usually breaking it up into 3 to 5 different top tube lengths (the preferred measurement of BMX frames) in any given run. Depending on the material used, (a lot of frames were built with straight gauge .035" or .049" chromoly front triangles) we would chop our main tubes to size, bend to rear end pieces (also straight gauge chromoly), and setup for mitering everything on two vertical mills. After all of that, everything would be racked and ready to weld.

With four to five people on the floor, we could manage the latter amount in a little over a month.

It was tough at times when you rely on sheer numbers to make a profit, but nonetheless still a good learning experience.

Five people could produce 200 frames in one month? That's 40 per person per month. 10 in one week per person. Assuming a five day week, that's two frames per day.

Is that a sustainable pace, or is it too much over a long period of time?

[devlin]

That's the economy of doing batch building. Instead of setting up a mill for mitreing 200 times you do it once.

[incepi]

Several years ago I considered having a small batch of cross country hard tail frames made by a local builder. Their main product line was Park bikes. I went as far as selecting and pricing the tubes, and finalizing the geometry. The company was sold, then moved and went out of business before anything could proceed, so nothing came of it.

At the time they were doing fixie frames for another company as a sideline. I liked the idea that they could produce a small quantity, locally, from quality materials.

[bencooper]

I build my Brompton forks and rear triangles in small batches of 5-10 - much more efficient than making them one at a time, though I do have dedicated jigs for them so there's no setup time that way.

Often what I do is cut and bend a batch of tubes, then leave them to one side and when I have a spare half hour I chuck the tubes in the jig and braze together one frame.

It's about maximum return for minimum work.

[Rody]

Would many custom builders do this type of semi production work, or has the culture changed to the point where nobody would want to(or admit to) doing work on this basis?

The answer to your query really lies in the individual builders business plan; are their business goals/income designed around semi-production/batch building of frames (either self branded or contract) with customization possible or are they "custom builders" who may chose to do batch building as an additional revenue stream?

There is nothing special about folks who choose to build a single bike for a single customer, it is simply a business model that has been found to be financially successful for small operation shops.

The independent builder who chooses to create small batches of frames for themselves or others by contract can also find financial success, but must look at COGS, time management, and client marketing models that differ from the single unit model.

Regardless of which business model you choose to engage in, fabricating product that does not have an active purchase order is a financial risk that must be accommodated for in your plan. The noted kickstarter was simply an approach to gain capital to pursue a new model without the designer taking on financial liability.

Eric, what are the motives of your queries? Is it your desire to engage in an aspect of bicycle construction or are you merely stimulating topical discussion based on your curiosity?

[incepi]

Eric, what are the motives of your queries? Is it your desire to engage in an aspect of bicycle construction or are you merely stimulating topical discussion based on your curiosity?

I'm as interested in designing tools and processes as I am building things with them.

I am curious about the framebuilding industry as an industry as well as the technical aspects and details of fabrication. I mentioned in another thread that I discovered an unfortunately high number of dead links when i compiled my framebuilder list. It made me wonder if framebuilders were exploring other business models outside of the "one frame for one client" approach.

[crumpton]

how did dead links make you wonder about that? just curious myself.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm as interested in designing tools and processes as I am building things with them.

I am curious about the framebuilding industry as an industry as well as the technical aspects and details of fabrication. I mentioned in another thread that I discovered an unfortunately high number of dead links when i compiled my framebuilder list. It made me wonder if framebuilders were exploring other business models outside of the "one frame for one client" approach.

No - most of them died from inexperience (fab experience, rather than business experience as is so often cited as the reason). You want to be part of this? Get trained. Work a lot. Work some more. Get experience. And when you're tired of doing it for someone else, you can start a brand. It's harsh. But it's reality.