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Thread: irrational fear of flying

  1. #1501
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by 72gmc View Post
    I agree. This felt similar to putting a piece of electrical tape over the check engine light on the dashboard.
    My take (as a total layperson) after watching that first video that @Saab2000 posted is holy crap those bolts have all kinds of locking mechanisms and there wasn’t damage to where they fit in on the panel that was found….so there were a LOT of places and a LOT of people from Boeing taking out the door plugs to make the interior assembly easier to the maintenance crews etc…a LOT of times that stuff should have been checked and verified that it just somehow got past (or in this case is it passed…double entendre). Culturally, if you are in that job from desigining the production process to looking at a problem light shouldn’t you give a damn more than giving it a cursory glance?

    Edit to add that the first statement out of Boeing communications (another guy I had worked with and am not a fan of) implied that “yeah we have had problems with the Spirit airframe guys so that’s why they fired the CEO and we put one of our guys in”….no mention of they take the thing out to make it easier to do the interior (and thus save production costs)
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    It looks like Boeing has accepted responsibility for the door bolt issue, but does anyone remember the Alaska Airlines maintenance scandal of 1998-99? I went to HS with a fellow who went to aviation mechanic school and then went on to receive his airline administration degree. He was working for then, USAirways, when Alaska recruited a ton of "outside" maintenance staff including him and 30 co-workers, moving them to Seattle, to address the "culture of deceit" as he called it at the time. From Wikipedia:

    In 1998, an Alaska Airlines mechanic named John Liotine, who worked in the Alaska Airlines maintenance center in Oakland, California, told the FAA that supervisors were approving records of maintenance that they were not allowed to approve or that indicated work had been completed when, in fact, it had not. Liotine began working with federal investigators by secretly audio recording his supervisors. On December 22, 1998, federal authorities raided an Alaska Airlines property and seized maintenance records. In August 1999, Alaska Airlines put Liotine on paid leave, and in 2000, Liotine filed a libel suit against the airline. The crash of AS261 became a part of the federal investigation against Alaska Airlines, because, in 1997, Liotine had recommended that the jackscrew and gimbal nut of the accident aircraft be replaced, but had been overruled by another supervisor. In December 2001, federal prosecutors stated that they were not going to file criminal charges against Alaska Airlines. Around that time, Alaska Airlines agreed to settle the libel suit by paying about $500,000; as part of the settlement, Liotine resigned.
    rw saunders
    hey, how lucky can one man get.

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying





    A few late night weather diversions thrown in for good luck, due to the crappy weather I suppose.
    rw saunders
    hey, how lucky can one man get.

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by rwsaunders View Post




    A few late night weather diversions thrown in for good luck, due to the crappy weather I suppose.
    That's some serious detouring. I do wonder who much fuel they respective had by the time they made it to PIT. Or perhaps each took on more fuel than usually needed in anticipation of a long diversion?

    Also, a scheduled 11 PM international arrival at JFK sounds somewhat hellish. Could easily be 12:30 AM by the time one gets out of CBP.

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Pittsburgh... I'd be pissed off if that happened. My Delhi-bound flight got diverted to Mumbai because of fog, and like these guys, we landed around midnight. Of course, we missed the connecting flight to Kathmandu on a different airline, so our itinerary got completely buggered. And it was mayhem at Mumbai because everyone on our sold-out flight had intended to get to Delhi that night but customer service reps were a bit scarce. That was not fun.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    That's some serious detouring. I do wonder who much fuel they respective had by the time they made it to PIT. Or perhaps each took on more fuel than usually needed in anticipation of a long diversion?

    Also, a scheduled 11 PM international arrival at JFK sounds somewhat hellish. Could easily be 12:30 AM by the time one gets out of CBP.
    Winds at JFK were gusting to nearly 50 knots at that time, so no surprise at the diversions. They were likely fine on fuel. Dispatchers and flight crews are well aware of the weather and plan accordingly. You are correct, customs can be challenging with a late night arrival, especially at an alternate airport.

    Greg
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    If you are an US Citizen or Resident, you should get the MPC app on your phone as backup. MPC makes entry easier, and about 30 airports have it, even Pittsburgh. I prefer Global Entry but as a back up..

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    As mentioned, they likely have plenty of fuel. The “fuel stack” on the flight plan is quite detailed and in the case of those flights to New York there were likely at least two alternates, significant holding fuel, contingency fuel, taxi fuel, in addition to the ‘trip’ fuel from A to B.

    You know before you depart how much your “diversion ‘bingo’ fuel” is going to be. When you’re at that number you just tell ATC you’re diverting. Unless it changes en route, they already know your alternate. It’s almost never an emergency though it’s inconvenient for all involved. The crews don’t actually wish to do it any more than the passengers want this.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    I went to book my monthly trip to Seattle for February on Alaska and noted that they dropped the direct flights for 2 weeks...inspections and plane shortage I presume.
    rw saunders
    hey, how lucky can one man get.

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by rwsaunders View Post
    The crash of AS261 became a part of the federal investigation against Alaska Airlines, because, in 1997, Liotine had recommended that the jackscrew and gimbal nut of the accident aircraft be replaced, but had been overruled by another supervisor. In December 2001, federal prosecutors stated that they were not going to file criminal charges against Alaska Airlines. Around that time, Alaska Airlines agreed to settle the libel suit by paying about $500,000; as part of the settlement, Liotine resigned.
    I remember reading the NTSB report and not being too impressed by MD, Alaska....or the FAA. Took a peek at it again today after seeing your post and noted that engineering analysis of maintenance revisions weren't required! Presumably they are now?

    In my former work world where things could get ugly, designs having single point failure modes with catastrophic consequences were identified and eliminated during Hazard and Operability Reviews of both initial designs and downstream changes. While the little airplanes I've flown didn't have much (any) redundancy wrt flight control surfaces (most of my flying didn't involve an engine...except on the other end of the tow rope) but I'd hope (and assume) commercial aircraft have it where it matters...like everywhere it matters!

    Keep chasing ever increased ROI while allowing conflicts of interest, revolving doors and lobbying in/of regulatory bodies and sooner or later muscle and bone is getting removed.
    John Clay
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    I remember reading the NTSB report and not being too impressed by MD, Alaska....or the FAA. Took a peek at it again today after seeing your post and noted that engineering analysis of maintenance revisions weren't required! Presumably they are now?

    In my former work world where things could get ugly, designs having single point failure modes with catastrophic consequences were identified and eliminated during Hazard and Operability Reviews of both initial designs and downstream changes. While the little airplanes I've flown didn't have much (any) redundancy wrt flight control surfaces (most of my flying didn't involve an engine...except on the other end of the tow rope) but I'd hope (and assume) commercial aircraft have it where it matters...like everywhere it matters!

    Keep chasing ever increased ROI while allowing conflicts of interest, revolving doors and lobbying in/of regulatory bodies and sooner or later muscle and bone is getting removed.
    If I were king for a day I’d significantly increase the budget of the FAA, for a lot of reasons. The MAX-7 and MAX-10 variants of the airplane are still in certification trials, in part because the FAA can’t and/or won’t rush the process on an airplane which now has a number of black eyes.

    Increasing staffing in the ATC world would also be a priority. Not nearly enough young people are becoming controllers, despite it being a high-paying job.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    If I were king for a day I’d significantly increase the budget of the FAA, for a lot of reasons. The MAX-7 and MAX-10 variants of the airplane are still in certification trials, in part because the FAA can’t and/or won’t rush the process on an airplane which now has a number of black eyes.

    Increasing staffing in the ATC world would also be a priority. Not nearly enough young people are becoming controllers, despite it being a high-paying job.
    Well, I'd vote for you.

    Maybe all those PATCO ATC guys were right after all??!! I also seem to recall that only one guy, instead of the required two I believe, was in the SFO tower during the AC759 approach and near miss....though "near miss" seems an inadequate description.
    John Clay
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Surely Alaska Airlines has to be grounded by the regulator pending a full investigation? If the safety issue came up three times and wasn't actioned and someone made the conscious decision to not fly the plane in question over water, then this sounds to me like gross negligence. The CEO may as well start packing their office up.

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    Surely Alaska Airlines has to be grounded by the regulator pending a full investigation? If the safety issue came up three times and wasn't actioned and someone made the conscious decision to not fly the plane in question over water, then this sounds to me like gross negligence. The CEO may as well start packing their office up.
    Not likely until after bonuses are given out.
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    Surely Alaska Airlines has to be grounded by the regulator pending a full investigation? If the safety issue came up three times and wasn't actioned and someone made the conscious decision to not fly the plane in question over water, then this sounds to me like gross negligence. The CEO may as well start packing their office up.
    Correlation does not always equal causation. Initial reports indicate the pressurization issue noted before the incident flight was a separate, unrelated failure. One of the dual, redundant pressurization controllers was inoperative in accordance with the approved Minimum Equipment List (MEL). Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS) rules don’t permit extended over-water operations with just one pressurization controller. The FAA definition of “extended over-water operations” is greater than 50 nautical miles from land. Commercial aircraft are routinely dispatched with inoperative equipment in accordance with MEL restrictions. The non-aviation press is not knowledgeable of these subtleties. The only reason I’m versed in these rules is a lifetime spent in the aerospace industry as a pilot, engineer, and flight department manager.

    Aviation accident/incident investigations take time. We have to be patient while the NTSB performs their investigation. The NTSB will determine if the previous pressurization issues were purely coincidental or indicative of the poorly secured door plug. The FAA has already taken the prudent step by issuing the emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) grounding the affected 737 MAX-9 fleet until required inspections are performed. Once the root cause of the door separation is determined, I’m sure some corporate heads will roll.

    A personal note: IMO Boeing has lost/degraded its safety culture. THAT is the root cause of all the 737 MAX issues. I have been personally responsible for aviation safety systems as a program manager and engineering program manager. My orders to my engineers are always the same. Whenever a safety-related decision needs to be made, picture the consequences of bad choices. If those consequences include putting human safety at risk, then the answer is NO. Back to the drawing board.

    Greg
    Old age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm every time…

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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    If I were king for a day I’d significantly increase the budget of the FAA, for a lot of reasons.
    I'd be properly funding and recruiting for a lot of federal/state agencies while pushing back against the folks who tirelessly work to sell off government. In the battle for economic/power primacy 'twixt nation state & govt in the public interest, and corporations, I'd say that the corporations are winning.
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    From NYTimes article on FAA investigation into whether Boeing conformed to approved designs for the Max9.

    Dave Calhoun, Boeing’s chief executive, on Tuesday promised transparency in the company’s response to the incident. He also said the company was “acknowledging our mistake” without explaining what he was referring to. Boeing has declined to elaborate on that remark.
    Depends on what you mean by transparent I guess. Not the clarity kind of transparency but the other kind - lack of clarity transparency.
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    In other news, next month, my son's flight school class is heading to Roswell, NM. The spring weather in Corpus Christi limits student flying. Roswell, other than occasional gusty winds, is better suited. The other options include Scottsdale. Roswell is 9 hours from my house; I'll make a road trip to watch once he's flying. Good cycling there as well. If the weather permits, I'll take a road bike with me.
    Retired Sailor, Marine dad, semi-professional cyclist, fly fisherman, and Indian School STEM teacher.
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    In other news, next month, my son's flight school class is heading to Roswell, NM. The spring weather in Corpus Christi limits student flying. Roswell, other than occasional gusty winds, is better suited. The other options include Scottsdale. Roswell is 9 hours from my house; I'll make a road trip to watch once he's flying. Good cycling there as well. If the weather permits, I'll take a road bike with me.
    Isn't that where they keep the aliens?
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    Default Re: irrational fear of flying

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Isn't that where they keep the aliens?
    Julius Levinson : AAAHHH, don't give me unprepared! You knew about this for years! What,with that spaceship you found in New Mexico! What was it called... Roswell, New Mexico! And that other place... uh... Area 51, Area 51! You knew then! And you did nothing!

    President Thomas Whitmore : Mr. Levinson, contrary to what you may have read in the tabloids, there is no Area 51. There is no spaceship...

    Presidential Chief of Staff Nimzicki
    : Uh... excuse me, Mr. President? That's not entirely accurate.

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