irrational fear of flying

[GeneK]

Hey Jim
Is there a “Babel” selection that will help me understand the terminology contained in your post?

[gregl]

Here's a quick list of aviation acronyms. I'll start with airport identifiers. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) identifies all US airports with a three-character, alpha-numeric identifier. International airports are further identified with a single letter prefix to denote their geographic location. For example, John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York is identified as JFK by the FAA and KJFK by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). The "K" in "KJFK" identifies the airport as being located in the continental US. HNL is Honolulu International Airport, with a "P" prefix as PHNL to denote its location in the Pacific. Many/most airport identifiers are contractions of the city associated with the airport. Others are references to the airport name or other local landmarks. For example, HPN is the identifier for the White Plains, NY airport. The identifier references the town of Harrison, hamlet of Purchase, and town of North Castle where the airport is located. Some of the other airports noted in this thread:

HKG = Hong Kong International Airport.
LAX = Los Angeles International Airport.
LGA = LaGuardia Airport in New York.
MLI = Moline Quad Cities International Airport.
MKE = Milwaukee International Airport.
MSP = Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
ORD = Chicago O'Hare International Airport. "ORD" is a reference to Orchard Place, a community previously located where the airport is now.
TPE = Taoyuan International Airport in Taiwan. "TPE" references the city of Taipei.

Some of the other aviation acronyms noted in this thread:

IFR = Instrument Flight Rules. This denotes the rules governing flight in both actual Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) or as required by Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) for commercial, air carrier flights. All aircraft operating in Class A airspace must fly under IFR.
PATCO = Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization. This was the union so famously crushed by President Reagan when they went on strike in 1981.

Going forward, I will endeavor to expand all acronyms on first usage in my replies to this thread.

Greg

[Saab2000]

CF means what you think it means. Sorry for the profanity.

[bigbill]

Here's a Naval Aviation training topic for decades to come. According to my Hawaiian friends that live near Kaneohe, they're still trying to figure out a salvage plan. As a retired marine salvage guy, it seems like they could install floats and tow it to one of the remaining seaplane ramps and just pull it out of the water.

[gregl]

Here's a Naval Aviation training topic for decades to come. According to my Hawaiian friends that live near Kaneohe, they're still trying to figure out a salvage plan. As a retired marine salvage guy, it seems like they could install floats and tow it to one of the remaining seaplane ramps and just pull it out of the water.

Low visibility, wet runway, and significant tailwind. All add up to a recipe for disaster. Glad no one was injured! In my civilian flying days, this would have required a diversion to PHNL. Someone's career just hit a major snag. Looking forward to saab's input, as he flies 737s for a living.

Since there were no injuries, I have been enjoying the internet jokes and memes about this overrun. "Where's the @#&$ tailhook for this plane?!?" "Any landing you can swim away from is a good landing." "Apparently this crew tried to follow a submarine way too closely."

As to salvage, the airframe and engines are likely to be written off after the saltwater bath. Electronic components above the waterline will likely be salvaged.

Greg

[Saab2000]

I haven’t got too much to say because I don’t have any data. But my employer has, in their history, had a couple of high-profile runway overruns and they make the news for the wrong reasons. Stable approaches and touching down in the appropriate spot are not optional in my company, or any other meaningful airline for that matter. Any significant deviation from these standards that goes without timely correction requires us to execute a go around.

But if it’s true that they had a tailwind and a wet runway that is indeed a recipe for what we’re looking at here. Beyond that I have no idea of the military regulations regarding winds, visibility, wet runways, etc. But the airplane is indeed a modified 737 with likely similar performance. That airplane is likely a write-off or at the least will be out of service for a long time.

[rwsaunders]

Photographing the last flight of the Concorde.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/c...ght/index.html

[gregl]

Early in my flying career, I flew into JFK nearly every week. If the timing was right, seeing Concorde arrivals and departures were always exciting. One foggy morning in the summer of 1987, I was inbound to JFK to pick up a passenger who was arriving from Europe. The weather was at Instrument Landing System (ILS) minimums, with barely 1/2 mile of visibility. A thin, marine fog layer extended from the surface to about 500’. Above the fog, the skies were clear and the air was still. I was flying a Piper Navajo Chieftain, a small but comfortable and capable twin. NY controllers expect small aircraft to keep their speeds up to maintain pace with the jet traffic. According, I was descending with cruise power still set, indicating 220 knots airspeed. (Note that I would slow to about 100 knots just before touchdown). This set the stage for one of the more memorable radio exchanges of my career:

NY approach control: “Navajo 53 Romeo Tango, say airspeed.”
N53RT: “53 Romeo Tango, 220 knots.”
NY approach control: “Air France 1 Heavy, say speed.”
Air France 1: “190 knots, Air France 1 Heavy.”
NY approach control: “53 Romeo Tango, reduce speed 30 knots. Traffic to follow is an Air France Concorde, 1 o’clock and 4 miles.”

Yup, my little piston-powered twin had to slow up for a supersonic jet! For context, the controller was planning to have me pass by the Concorde before turning me to the right to follow it on the approach. I can only hope/imagine the air traffic controller was enjoying this dialogue as much as I was. I had a big, silly grin the rest of that day. While I do have a witness, I only wish I had a voice archive of the event!

Greg

[Saab2000]

I wouldn’t want to follow a Concorde at 4 miles! Especially in a Navajo. The wakes from that big delta wing would scare the daylights out of me.

When I was flying in Europe I flew with a guy who witnessed the crash at CDG. Sobering to put it mildly. Tragic story. The airplane is a true engineering masterpiece.

[gregl]

I wouldn’t want to follow a Concorde at 4 miles! Especially in a Navajo. The wakes from that big delta wing would scare the daylights out of me.

I should have drawn up a diagram to show the relative positions and directions of the aircraft. I didn’t follow him at four miles. He was initially pointed out to me at 1 o’clock and four miles, below my altitude and heading the opposite direction from me. By the time the controller turned me behind him, I’m sure there was sufficient distance as specified for following a heavy jet.

Flying general aviation aircraft into some of the busiest airports in the world was always an exercise in wake turbulence avoidance. My mentors gave me great on-the-job training regarding staying above the wakes (e.g., flying the glideslope high and landing long). Takeoffs were generally easier since small aircraft were airborne quickly and climbed above the wakes. You quickly got pretty good at it.

I remember following an L-1011 into Boston one calm, clear morning. I could actually see the effect of his wingtip vortices on the bay. The L1011 wake actually churned up small waves that were visible from above and behind! It was a very sobering vision. And crossing the wake of a C-5 at a right angle was like hitting a big pothole in a car!

Greg

[Mabouya]

and significant tailwind

If this was the case, I wonder why didn't they land in the other direction.

[gregl]

If this was the case, I wonder why didn't they land in the other direction.

Because of the proximity to mountains, the instrument approach procedures at Kaneohe are only for runway 22. Due to the combination of cloud height and visibility, they could not make a visual approach to runway 4, which the winds favored. Instead, they used an instrument approach to runway 22 with the tailwind. The investigation will undoubtedly lay out how the crew came to that decision and any other factors that precipitated the crash.

Greg

[Mabouya]

I figure there was a good reason, but had no clue what it might be. Thanks for the clarification on that issue.

(Obviously they weren't the first aircraft to land there under those conditions, so we'll have to wait and see what the Navy investigation says.)

[busdriver1959]

I'm not a big fan of looking at photos of aircraft parked in the ocean so how about a photo of a Panda flying home to Chengdu and munching on a carrot. In order to keep
this post in line with the title of this thread, the mama bear was very afraid of flying and would jump at the slightest noise or movement. I felt bad for her but there weren't too many other options to get the three of them home.1216D8A4-B077-48E7-8D03-CD959519298D_1_201_a.jpg
This one is papa bear, Tian Tian.

[rwsaunders]

Small plane comes in hot, veers off runway and hits car…the airport fence is your friend.

Watch: Propeller plane misses runway and crashes into car in Texas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67411262

[mnoble485]

Bus driver,
Were you driving the Panda Express?

Mike

[busdriver1959]

I did. I flew with our 777 chief pilot. He did the interviews and was actually the one doing the driving. I was happy to sit back and watch the show. We were told that the whole thing might be downplayed but that proved to be wrong.
We took the pandas from Dulles up to Anchorage and another crew took them down to Chengdu. The handlers didn't mind if we went back to see the bears during the flight so we were able to interact with them more than most people. It was fun to do something different.

[echappist]

I did. I flew with our 777 chief pilot. He did the interviews and was actually the one doing the driving. I was happy to sit back and watch the show. We were told that the whole thing might be downplayed but that proved to be wrong.
We took the pandas from Dulles up to Anchorage and another crew took them down to Chengdu. The handlers didn't mind if we went back to see the bears during the flight so we were able to interact with them more than most people. It was fun to do something different.

Almost reminiscent of the 1980's, when many trans-Pacific trips required a stop in Alaska.

Do you know if any fully-loaded aircraft (freighter or otherwise) could make the westward trip from East Coast to a location in PR China without having to refuel?

[j44ke]

Small plane comes in hot, veers off runway and hits car…the airport fence is your friend.

Watch: Propeller plane misses runway and crashes into car in Texas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67411262

Pretty typical Texas driving if you ask me.

[rwsaunders]

Almost reminiscent of the 1980's, when many trans-Pacific trips required a stop in Alaska.

Do you know if any fully-loaded aircraft (freighter or otherwise) could make the westward trip from East Coast to a location in PR China without having to refuel?

Shanghai and Hong Kong have direct flights to both JFK and EWR...no Beijing though.

https://www.flightsfrom.com/explorer/PVG?mapview