irrational fear of flying

[Saab2000]

Just back from SFO-JFK and back on Alaska. The new LIRR connection to Grand Central makes JFK a viable choice for me now to connect to Metro North. It beats the hour plus ride on the A train from Howard Beach. I was hoping I'd like this option more than EWR, but JFK still seems like a terrible airport to me, at least terminal 7. It took almost an hour to get through a TSA line that snaked back and forth in a hot windowless room with fans blowing on us, like some sort of industrial farm. Even worse than EWR. Arriving home at SFO is always such a relaxing experience compared with the mayhem of NYC airports.

Get Global Entry. It’s worth the hassle. If you ever travel a single time internationally it’ll be worth the hassle. Included in that, I believe, is TSA Pre Check, which will let you get into another line which is hopefully quicker.

I believe Pre-Check is a perk of Global Entry and the whole shebang is worth the price of admission if you travel one single solitary international flight. I travel as a regular passenger internationally with no perks for my work and GE was a total game changer. Get it.

[j44ke]

JFK is going to be max pain for a while until renovations are done (which I think are over $20billion at this point.) The airport authority is probably stonewalling some things in hopes that they get an injection of funding from the state like Laguardia did on their renovations (unlikely as Cuomo is gone.) JFK does do something like 60 million passengers a year, probably lower now due to the covid era, so not as much as Atlanta but as I understand it with a much smaller square footage in which to put all those people.

Not a smooth operation, but there have been improvements in staffing quality, more radios to keep staff connected to what's going on, and they did away with the completely failed automation that used to self-destruct as soon as a big flight from Africa arrived. Hard to convince anyone of this admittedly, but in the dark ages, I stood in line for 3 hours once trying to get through passport & border control after a flight from London. The last couple times I've gotten off a plane from France, I've been done in less than an hour.

[bigbill]

One of my trips to the US in 2007 was Rome to JFK. I had to do immigration because my next flight was to Reagan National. It was a full flight but I had almost four hours to make my connection so I just meandered along. About half the passengers were Hasidic Jews returning from Israel, so I just fell in line behind them. The big room where you stand in line with the pedestrian traffic barriers was empty so we were just doing chicanes back and forth to the immigration windows. A group of youts (channeling my inner Cousin Vinny) were going under the barriers and got to the front of the line before the remaining passengers. A shouting match started between the youts and Hasidic men and the Port Authority Police were called. While that was being sorted out, I quietly walked up to a window, got my passport stamped, collected my bag and rechecked it for the domestic flight. At the time, I had a classified packet (SECRET) of papers in my bag. I was an authorized courier, but maintaining a low profile was my goal.

[gregl]

Yet another reason to fear flying - an airline pilot threatening to shoot his fellow pilot on the flight deck: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/us/pi...ent/index.html. The pilot who was arrested appears to have a history of questioning authority: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/u...ne-airman.html.

My $0.02: guns do not belong on the flight deck under any circumstances in scheduled, commercial aviation. If the environment is so dangerous that we need armed personnel on commercial airlines, train more sky marshals. The last thing I want is a captain or first officer with a bad attitude and a deadly weapon.

Greg

[j44ke]

Yet another reason to fear flying - an airline pilot threatening to shoot his fellow pilot on the flight deck: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/us/pi...ent/index.html. The pilot who was arrested appears to have a history of questioning authority: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/u...ne-airman.html.

My $0.02: guns do not belong on the flight deck under any circumstances in scheduled, commercial aviation. If the environment is so dangerous that we need armed personnel on commercial airlines, train more sky marshals. The last thing I want is a captain or first officer with a bad attitude and a deadly weapon.

Greg

Also shows that the safety value of screening people for gun ownership is only as good as their next argument.

[72gmc]

“The Federal Flight Deck Officer program was developed in the wake of the September 11, 2001, attacks and involves training and arming pilots to handle an in-flight attack, such as a hijacking attempt.“

I wasn’t aware of this and it feels similar to arming teachers. I wonder if this is the only incident of this kind, and if there is any matrix for assessing risk vs reward with this program.

[gregl]

“The Federal Flight Deck Officer program was developed in the wake of the September 11, 2001, attacks and involves training and arming pilots to handle an in-flight attack, such as a hijacking attempt.“

I wasn’t aware of this and it feels similar to arming teachers. I wonder if this is the only incident of this kind, and if there is any matrix for assessing risk vs reward with this program.

The only incident I'm aware of was an accidental weapon discharge in a US Airways Airbus in 2008: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-airw...es-in-cockpit/.

Greg

[rwsaunders]

https://airlinegeeks.com/2017/06/05/...oeing-737-800/

AA 1964 retro livery Astrojet as seen at ORD this morning. The traffic jam was caused by a helicopter flying over ORD and taking photos...our pilot wasn't pleased at all.

[Chik]

“The Federal Flight Deck Officer program was developed in the wake of the September 11, 2001, attacks and involves training and arming pilots to handle an in-flight attack, such as a hijacking attempt.“

I wasn’t aware of this and it feels similar to arming teachers. I wonder if this is the only incident of this kind, and if there is any matrix for assessing risk vs reward with this program.

Yet another reason to fear flying - an airline pilot threatening to shoot his fellow pilot on the flight deck: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/us/pi...ent/index.html. The pilot who was arrested appears to have a history of questioning authority: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/u...ne-airman.html.

My $0.02: guns do not belong on the flight deck under any circumstances in scheduled, commercial aviation. If the environment is so dangerous that we need armed personnel on commercial airlines, train more sky marshals. The last thing I want is a captain or first officer with a bad attitude and a deadly weapon.

Greg

I had thought that the Americans had consulted El Al about in-flight security after 9/11. All El Al pilots are ex air force and trained in fire arms, but even they do not carry guns when on El Al duties.

And, yeah, it calls to mind the arming of school teachers: a daft idea.

[rwsaunders]

Alaska pilot (mushroom/cockpit incident) tells his story...interesting and sad story about mental health.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/u...smid=url-share

[gregl]

Unannounced first flight of the B-21 Raider took place today: https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...rs-2023-11-10/

Greg

[bigbill]

The B-2 and the new B-21 are the advantages we have over our potential adversaries. When Russia wanted to bomb targets in Syria, they had to land in Iran to refuel before they could continue on to their targets. The US can hit the same targets from a base in Oklahoma with aerial refueling. Radar might detect the falling bombs, but it's too late by then.

[Mabouya]

The US can hit the same targets from a base in Oklahoma with aerial refueling.

I feel sorry for any pilot(s) who have to fly (or train) for that mission - I can't imagine being in a cockpit for that long.

[vertical_doug]

The B-2 and the new B-21 are the advantages we have over our potential adversaries. When Russia wanted to bomb targets in Syria, they had to land in Iran to refuel before they could continue on to their targets. The US can hit the same targets from a base in Oklahoma with aerial refueling. Radar might detect the falling bombs, but it's too late by then.

I always thought after the fall of the Soviet Union, the B-2 was an expensive piece of tech looking for a problem. Realistically, tomahawks from Navy Ships are probably more cost effective, and for nuclear weapons, the SSN program is better.

Early in the program, the B-2 supposedly needed like 1000hr of maintenance per 1hr of flight.

[bigbill]

I always thought after the fall of the Soviet Union, the B-2 was an expensive piece of tech looking for a problem. Realistically, tomahawks from Navy Ships are probably more cost effective, and for nuclear weapons, the SSN program is better.

Early in the program, the B-2 supposedly needed like 1000hr of maintenance per 1hr of flight.

The US operates B-2s out of Diego Garcia as well as CONUS. It is horribly expensive to operate, but no one else in the world has this capacity. It has the ability to launch cruise missiles so it could approach within a few hundred miles of an adversary without being detected, and release its load of cruise missiles to hit specific targets. It can then escape undetected as well.

The Triad composed of land based missiles, land based bombers, and submarine launched ICBMs were the backbone of US deterrence. None were intended for a first strike. The bad guys have changed their offensive composition. China, Russia, and even North Korea have capable air defenses that can take out a bomber such as the B-52. We do deterrence flights over the DMZ in Korea with bombers and fighters, but the reality, if the NK fired surface to air (Russian tech) missiles, they could take out several aircraft. It's no secret where we have land based ICBMs and the locations were based on protection and time to detect Soviet inbound missiles. There are very few nations in the world that could hit targets in South Dakota, and most are our friends. The only true deterrent is the submarine.

The issue with submarines is the aging Trident fleet with the new Columbia slow to be built. Submarines are built for 30 years of service which includes a midlife refueling. The modern designs (Virginia and Columbia Class) will require fewer hulls since they are built with a 30 year core. They don't require a midlife refuel (three years in the shipyard). SSBNs (submarine service ballistic nuclear) boat carry ICBMs. I did eight strategic deterrent patrols on the USS Florida (SSBN 728) which was converted to a SSGN (guided missile) in the early 2000s. SSNs haven't carried tactical nukes since 1992, but they have the ability to launch Tomahawks, which could have a tactical warhead, but so far, the US views nukes as a deterrence, and you wouldn't position fast attacks (SSN) for deterrence. A Trident D5 can hit a target anywhere in the world. A Tomahawk has limited range so the sub has to be closer.

About Tomahawks, they are amazing weapons, but not reliable in certain situations. Tomahawks go straight, turn, and continue straight. There's no curved path. If a turn is missed, the missile will continue until it runs out of fuel and impacts on the ground. During OIF, I was a carrier Officer of the Deck. The east end of the operational area had a "pop box" where cruisers, destroyers, and subs would launch Tomahawks. We were in the NE Mediterranean so cruise missiles had to go north over Turkey before turning south to hit Iraq. You couldn't fly missiles or aircraft over Syria, Jordan, or Israel. After a few Tomahawks lost their way over Turkey and caused some deaths/destruction, we had to stop the cruise missile attacks from the Med.

[rwsaunders]

[gregl]

I was once sitting out a long delay in a seemingly endless line of flights at LGA. IIRC, it was 3+ hours waiting out a strong line of thunderstorms. Planes were having to return to the gate to get additional fuel, crews were running out of duty time, and some of the smaller commuter planes (without lavatories) were asking to return to the terminal for passenger "nature breaks". In the midst of this mess, an AA 767 crew told the ground controller they were shutting down engines and their cabin crew would be serving dinner. The AA captain then asked if the flight deck crew should have cocktails with their dinner... As the old saying goes, "With time to spare, go by air. Those with the brains take the trains."

Greg

[Saab2000]

I was once sitting out a long delay in a seemingly endless line of flights at LGA. IIRC, it was 3+ hours waiting out a strong line of thunderstorms. Planes were having to return to the gate to get additional fuel, crews were running out of duty time, and some of the smaller commuter planes (without lavatories) were asking to return to the terminal for passenger "nature breaks". In the midst of this mess, an AA 767 crew told the ground controller they were shutting down engines and their cabin crew would be serving dinner. The AA captain then asked if the flight deck crew should have cocktails with their dinner... As the old saying goes, "With time to spare, go by air. Those with the brains take the trains."

Greg

I don’t know when the last time you were in LGA but it’s incredible how much better it is now than it was 15 years ago during the worst days of that place. Both operationally and in terms of the facility it’s unrecognizable. The runways haven’t changed an inch but literally almost everything else has. I used to dread LGA. No more. It’s a legit nice airport now.

[gregl]

I don’t know when the last time you were in LGA but it’s incredible how much better it is now than it was 15 years ago during the worst days of that place. Both operationally and in terms of the facility it’s unrecognizable. The runways haven’t changed an inch but literally almost everything else has. I used to dread LGA. No more. It’s a legit nice airport now.

Haven’t been through LGA since 2004. New York City is close enough to Syracuse that driving is faster than flying for point-to-point travel. If I’m flying anyplace south or to Europe, other airports are better gateways. Glad to hear “LaGarbage” has improved on several levels. It was one of my least favorite airports during the 1980s and 1990s. I could write a book about my LGA adventures. One of my favorites: a 1986 departure after midnight. In the wake of the 1981 PATCO strike, the FAA was still short of controllers. LGA tower shut down at midnight. I recall picking up my IFR clearance on the radio from the NY flight service station. Then I broadcast my departure intention over the (closed) tower frequency that was used for common traffic advisories. Just like departing any uncontrolled, small airport! It was quite surreal.

Greg

[Saab2000]

Haven’t been through LGA since 2004. New York City is close enough to Syracuse that driving is faster than flying for point-to-point travel. If I’m flying anyplace south or to Europe, other airports are better gateways. Glad to hear “LaGarbage” has improved on several levels. It was one of my least favorite airports during the 1980s and 1990s. I could write a book about my LGA adventures. One of my favorites: a 1986 departure after midnight. In the wake of the 1981 PATCO strike, the FAA was still short of controllers. LGA tower shut down at midnight. I recall picking up my IFR clearance on the radio from the NY flight service station. Then I broadcast my departure intention over the (closed) tower frequency that was used for common traffic advisories. Just like departing any uncontrolled, small airport! It was quite surreal.

Greg

ORD, at least back in 2004, went down to one or two controllers some nights after about 2100 Local. Clearance, Ground, Tower and Departure. I doubt it’s that way now but that wasn’t that long ago - during the era of these bike forums/fora.

We had a 21:30 or so departure from ORD to some distant place like MKE or MLI and Clearance told us to contact Tower on the same freq and the voice was the same on all.

Similar story in LAX about 7 years ago heading to MSP around midnight. That was a CF though, with heavies and Supers heading to TPE or HKG trying to read back a long form clearance…….