What I've Noticed -

[e-RICHIE]

In the last several years, as selfies, home-made Vimeos with Kenny G soundtracks become the norm, and with the niche continuing to have spikes of interest from folks looking for an open window to crawl in through, I have noticed a lot of bad framebuilding being shown. Be they JPEGs, process shot sequences, or blog entries about how the work is done, there appears to be a lot of under-trained and untrained people making frames for others. I'm prompted to pen this text now because I just saw a 6 minute flick making the rounds, and in it is shown material being prepared, and then assembled into a unit. This, from a maker who is the business now and who also "teaches" others who want to do what he does.

Forgetting for a moment that I have strong opinions about certain things related to this profession, I'm asking that those who are new, who are on the left hand side of the developmental timeline, who may be self-taught, or perhaps took a class and leaped straight into taking orders - please exercise some due diligence and do more work, do better work, get a job in production for a spell so you can hone a skill or three, or simply take a breath before you hang out a shingle and cash checks.

Framebuilding seems a bit watered down these days and it's very noticeable. The mediocre (I won't even mention the bad...) work is becoming too ubiquitous.

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

[EricKeller]

Good post, needs to be said sometimes. The hand work is the easy part, it should be dialed. I gave up on this subject long ago, and as a person of no note in framebuilding, I have no influence anyway. With engineers, I try to steer them the best I can, but they have to make their own way. A lot of times it feels like riding stoker on a tandem. I have been looking at other people's pictures of their framebuilding efforts on the interwebs for a long time, and there are some people that are doing great work now that didn't do so at first. And others that left.

However, if I ever do a framebuilding video, it's going to be limited to 5:22

[Britishbane]

Snip...
Framebuilding seems a bit watered down these days and it's very noticeable. The mediocre (I won't even mention the bad...) work is becoming too ubiquitous.

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

On the flip side there is this: The Next Wave | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

[Britishbane]

^^^Matt Fackner

[zetroc]

The need for validation in the form of likes has intruded upon a number of industries. I've also noticed a number of amateurishly built bicycles featured in prominent locations on the interwebs as examples of fine craftsmanship. But I was at Mission Workshop listening to Cameron Falconer and he attributed a quote to Curtis Inglis that goes something like "Craft is something I like to spread on sandwiches."

I don't think there's one answer. Just hope that buyers will be informed enough to make good choices, and that the signal cuts through the noise enough to help them.

[ron l edmiston]

--- and as a client.., seeking, nippering, anticipating, waiting & putting my "life-on-the-line" every time i mount up with a smile.., ---- i received the "right-end side of the developmental timeline.."
those following with/from all frame-builders, deserve the same respect too..

ronnie with a smile of respect & thank you

[ellisbriggs]

The majority of customers and journalists can't tell the difference between a finely made frame and an average one. And on top of that a lot of framebuilders don't know what makes a really fine frame either. None of this is anything new in the UK. In the 40 and 50s, 70s and 80s there has been new builders come and go, building shoddy frames.

Once upon a time a builder called Bernard Maklam who we did enamelling for was talking about how he built frames in a day and we said to him that Andrew (our builder at the time) takes a week. Maklam said "so what does he do for the other 4 days?"

Many of these frames from builders like Maklam were highly regarded at the time.

Frame repairs have always been a big part of the framebuilding business in the UK and you really see how well a frame is put together once on start replacing tubes. It's not fair to name names but many British frames were churned out, including some of the biggest names in the UK.

What's different now is that with the Internet and social media, builders are showing off their shoddy work which they don't know is shoddy and the public are looking at these pics and thinking it's craftsmanship because they don't know what they are looking at.

[bencooper]

Indeed - I'm now considering not doing repairs any more, getting tired of fixing the dodgy workmanship of others.

[jon_norstog]

Well, I moved to ground zero for newbie builders - Portland! One thing I noticed is that most people who have actually bought a handmade 'builder bike don't ride all that hard. Probably just as well. It's a little different from what I'm used to. My clients tend to be bike-destroying animals. Keeps one on his or her toes, it does. Other thing I've noticed is that many 'builders are pretty much replicating the geometry of mass-produced bikes. It's almost as if they don't ride at all. or don't give it much thought ...


jn

"Thursday"

[Peter Polack]

...please exercise some due diligence and do more work, do better work, get a job in production for a spell so you can hone a skill or three, ...

But how much "more" work is enough? Who do they have from the framebuilding establishment to mentor or critique them? And I imagine there are so few production framebuilding related jobs out there, certainly without moving to a certain locale, that it would be near impossible to find one.

The newbies won't know their game is not ready for prime time unless they have teachers to grade the test. While I fully understand and agree with your sentiments Richard, I don't see how those framebuilders new to the business will be able to refine their skills without direct support from industry veterans or from just pumping out frames and learning from their mistakes-that's how a lot of successful craftspeople learned their chops. Admittedly, the second path makes the customer the guinea pig which is sort of unfair to the customer but there's a measure of buyer beware in this and I don't expect most customers to be knowledgeable in how frames are made; they want what they see, not the sausage being made.

In general, could you say what you find unacceptable in some of the building methods you see from these new builders? Or would you be criticizing methods that some successful brands already use?

Also, can anyone send me a PM link to the video Richard might have seen?

[progetto]

That's the point. Learn the craft from a production/repetition mode before you hang out a shingle. If you can't, then don't. Half a dozen frames doesn't make a framebuilder.

But how much "more" work is enough? Who do they have from the framebuilding establishment to mentor or critique them? And I imagine there are so few production framebuilding related jobs out there, certainly without moving to a certain locale, that it would be near impossible to find one.

The newbies won't know their game is not ready for prime time unless they have teachers to grade the test. While I fully understand and agree with your sentiments Richard, I don't see how those framebuilders new to the business will be able to refine their skills without direct support from industry veterans or from just pumping out frames and learning from their mistakes-that's how a lot of successful craftspeople learned their chops. Admittedly, the second path makes the customer the guinea pig which is sort of unfair to the customer but there's a measure of buyer beware in this and I don't expect most customers to be knowledgeable in how frames are made; they want what they see, not the sausage being made.

In general, could you say what you find unacceptable in some of the building methods you see from these new builders? Or would you be criticizing methods that some successful brands already use?

Also, can anyone send me a PM link to the video Richard might have seen?

[Tristan]

Can someone post a link to this video please?

[dashDustin]

Isn't NAHBS, etc, fostering this?

[e-RICHIE]

While I fully understand and agree with your sentiments Richard, I don't see how those framebuilders new to the business will be able to refine their skills without direct support from industry veterans or from just pumping out frames and learning from their mistakes-that's how a lot of successful craftspeople learned their chops.

My opinion* is that the support is there and has been all along. Every career cat I know or am acquainted with gives back and/or mentors. The help is so that the recipient can do a better job at making a frame for himself. It's not to put him in business.

*My brethren in the trade can speak for themselves.

[Eric Estlund]

And I imagine there are so few production framebuilding related jobs out there, certainly without moving to a certain locale, that it would be near impossible to find one.

I've used this analogy before, but if you want to go to a college that specializes in a specific program, you go to them. Same with industry gigs- if you want the job, you go there and try to get it. Not everyone lands it. That's ok.

Its really easy to read these sorts of discussions as the old guard ripping on the new guys, but that isn't the case. Hard work and self criticism are important skills- might as well start early.

I won't speak for the profession at large, but I know I have received help and try to give it when I can.

[progetto]

No. NAHBS is enabling with no qualifications needed for entry. NAHBS is a business for Don. Nothing wrong with that, but NAHBS doesn't have a lot to do with framebuilding as a trade these day's. My opinion anyway.

Isn't NAHBS, etc, fostering this?

[RichTheRoadie]

I picked up a bike from a very highly regarded (or at least highly desired) builder, only to end up getting a refund because I started noticing faults that he said would require a rebuild to put right (25c tyres rubbed the drive side chain stay under power, top tube had something rattling in it, bottle cage mount holes were fitted wonky). He eventually admitted to knowing the faults were there.

If the experienced, reputable guys are making mistakes like this I really fear for what the new guys are sending out.

I think a lot of customers are getting sucked in by nice paint and mistaking it as 'proof' of a great bike.

[oldmuthariley]

I picked up a bike from a very highly regarded (or at least highly desired) builder, only to end up getting a refund because I started noticing faults that he said would require a rebuild to put right (25c tyres rubbed the drive side chain stay under power, top tube had something rattling in it, bottle cage mount holes were fitted wonky). He eventually admitted to knowing the faults were there.

If the experienced, reputable guys are making mistakes like this I really fear for what the new guys are sending out.

I think a lot of customers are getting sucked in by nice paint and mistaking it as 'proof' of a great bike.

It did look lovely though!(especially with nemesis if I remember the pics)

[oldmuthariley]

In the last several years, as selfies, home-made Vimeos with Kenny G soundtracks become the norm, and with the niche continuing to have spikes of interest from folks looking for an open window to crawl in through, I have noticed a lot of bad framebuilding being shown. Be they JPEGs, process shot sequences, or blog entries about how the work is done, there appears to be a lot of under-trained and untrained people making frames for others. I'm prompted to pen this text now because I just saw a 6 minute flick making the rounds, and in it is shown material being prepared, and then assembled into a unit. This, from a maker who is the business now and who also "teaches" others who want to do what he does.

Forgetting for a moment that I have strong opinions about certain things related to this profession, I'm asking that those who are new, who are on the left hand side of the developmental timeline, who may be self-taught, or perhaps took a class and leaped straight into taking orders - please exercise some due diligence and do more work, do better work, get a job in production for a spell so you can hone a skill or three, or simply take a breath before you hang out a shingle and cash checks.

Framebuilding seems a bit watered down these days and it's very noticeable. The mediocre (I won't even mention the bad...) work is becoming too ubiquitous.

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

what would the likes of Alex Singer, Rene Herse, Ernest Csuka etc think of today's supposedly top builders I wonder?
how does one achieve a status of a renowned and respected builder and who decides?
Is it the consumer who often pays 1000's of whatever they earn to own a bike frame or other builders who are contemporaries? Is there a pecking order of those who build with lugs or tig weld?
Is it about the brand or the image?
I don't know the answers but would be interested to know as some builders are charging silly amounts of money for frames these days which makes me wonder are they worth it or is it just because builders can get away with it...?

[RichTheRoadie]

some builders are charging silly amounts of money for frames these days which makes me wonder are they worth it or is it just because builders can get away with it...?

Based on the customers in my last shop I'd say it's cash-rich corporate types getting into cycling, diving headlong into their first custom build without really knowing what they're doing; all the while focusing on getting something rarer, more sparkly and more expensive than their new cycling buddies - their only logic being "if it's *that* expensive it *must* be good".

Hell, I'd been cycling for 20yrs+ but I still rushed into my first custom build. If patience were a virtue I'm blessed with I would probably be nearing the front of the Vanilla build queue about now, and armed with a whole lot more knowledge of what *really* works for me.