What I've Noticed -

[waterlaz]

I'm bad with analogies, but you wouldn't buy a camera, have a career lens-man translate the owner's manual onto lay English for you, and then become a commercial shooter yourself.

I see this happen all the time.

[Rody]

So please, do not suggest that I am some leech looking to pick the bare minimum of information from the brain of the builders around me in order to build some un-insured death traps for my friends.

Eric,

I want to respond as this statement unsettles me.

It is not the intent of any here to condemn or vilify, but to share and educate. The end goal is to create a greater awareness and understanding of the niche of frame fabrication. Design, process, business, legal responsibilities, it is a broad spectrum that cannot be dissected and plied separately, it is all synergistic.

Each here are individuals and very seldom do two people take the same path to learn this craft. There is no one method of learning that works for all. Competency, however, does require a similar requirement from each who choose to build; repetition. The variable continues to be how quickly each individual achieves that. Whether that knowledge takes the individual to a high level of proficiency at a hobby level or facilitates the first steps into business is a decision that belongs to the builder alone.

I broached the subject of insurance as too seldom do folks entering this niche understand the legal implications and assumed responsibility they have as soon as one of their vehicles is passed to another. To build without that knowledge is dangerous, to continue to build becomes an informed personal decision.

My motives for contributing here are to help create a professional standard; expected by the consumer, exceeded by the fabricator.

Working and sharing together, we can all raise the bar.

cheers,

rody

[Mark Kelly]

me lots of them

Any recommendations for testing agencies Mike? I'm about ready to send three frames out for testing but I haven't really looked at where or how yet.

[crumpton]

i do EN14781 horizontal forces, the important one, in house.

and i think it is very important for anyone building/selling carbon tube-to-tube frames.

How many builders on here have actually put frames through EN or ASTM testing?

If a noob built just a handful of bikes yet can prove his work passes industry standard testing would people still think their not ready till they've spent more time at the bench?

[Rody]

How many builders on here have actually put frames through EN or ASTM testing?

If a noob built just a handful of bikes yet can prove his work passes industry standard testing would people still think their not ready till they've spent more time at the bench?

Brian,

I wanted to respond to this from the perspective of the custom handbuilt frame.

The testing standards you have noted best serve the industry with products that have a set specification and are to be manufactured in quantities. This allows both the company producing the product and the consumer to have an expectation of standards.

Within the niche of the one off frame; design, materials, construction methods, all may change with each build. The specifications that testing depend on are a moving target, constantly changing. This detracts from the validity of the testing.

Within my own business model, the products I produce for after market consumption have been tested and do not deviate from the base specification; handlebars, cranks, seat posts. Frames however, do constantly change and have no fixed specifications, so I rely on proven construction methods that have been refined by repetition, personal and shared experience, and prudently erring on the side of caution when decision making. My customers are my livelihood and I take care to protect them.

The ability to pass a test does not speak to the quality of the goods or the readiness of a product for market, it is but one consideration.

cheers,

rody

[e-RICHIE]

Thank you -

Eric,

I want to respond as this statement unsettles me.

It is not the intent of any here to condemn or vilify, but to share and educate. The end goal is to create a greater awareness and understanding of the niche of frame fabrication. Design, process, business, legal responsibilities, it is a broad spectrum that cannot be dissected and plied separately, it is all synergistic.

Each here are individuals and very seldom do two people take the same path to learn this craft. There is no one method of learning that works for all. Competency, however, does require a similar requirement from each who choose to build; repetition. The variable continues to be how quickly each individual achieves that. Whether that knowledge takes the individual to a high level of proficiency at a hobby level or facilitates the first steps into business is a decision that belongs to the builder alone.

I broached the subject of insurance as too seldom do folks entering this niche understand the legal implications and assumed responsibility they have as soon as one of their vehicles is passed to another. To build without that knowledge is dangerous, to continue to build becomes an informed personal decision.

My motives for contributing here are to help create a professional standard; expected by the consumer, exceeded by the fabricator.

Working and sharing together, we can all raise the bar.

cheers,

rody

[devlin]

I risk rolling of eyes here but here goes....

I've read through this thread and digested it read some other stuff and chatted with a mate and wrestled with some ideas and have changed my mindset on a couple of things but I am still struggling with one data point. When does one know they are at a point where they can 'hang that shingle'? I'm not talking about how long but when they have reached a level considered that they aren't competent enough to sell to others.

I think that's what most of us who are embarking on this journey are struggling to grasp. Some will take to it very quickly and some may never get there. There is no certification. There is no level of competency test. Nothing. I understand exactly what is being said here and if I was at the other end of the time line I would be saying the exact same thing.

I have built a few frames. A few forks. I have done a heap of practice brazing both in lugs and fillets in silver and bronze and lots of trying to rip it a part to see where it gives first. I am pretty good on the tools and have been able to be fairly resourceful in getting the frames built with the tools at my disposal. First frame was done freehand no surface table in site, only straight edges and when I put it on my table after I got it I was within 1mm at worst (seat tube). My other frames have been very accurate and I am very confident of the brazing.

I've been riding bikes for 25 years. Lots of them. I have a very good head for designing things and understand movement and mechanics very well. Not big noting just aware of what I'm good at. Even Dazza has been impressed with some of my converstion and understanding with him.

I am quite confident that I can build a safe well designed well manufactured bike BUT how do I really know that? I am finding it very difficult to even get insurance in Australia as I can't demonstrate to them I know what I am doing.

So, while I am hearing exactly what you are saying and agree with it in context I am at a loss as to what I am supposed to do to get myself off the ground. It is all I think about and all I want to do right now. If anyone of the frame builders offered an apprenticeship or traineeship I would pack my bags tomorrow but I see so few offers for these positions, and none in Australia that I have to go it alone. It still comes back to the question. When am I ready?


PS. I'm not having a go. Certainly not the tone I intend. More desperate to unravel.

[crumpton]

I believe the EN test protocols are blind to material, tried and true techniques and customization. What it does is set a minimum standard to help safeguard users against injury while operating that 2 wheeled vehicle. The tests are centered around cycle fatigue and impact. If one feels they are inadequate, then turn up the heat.

As long as the debates exist in how much/what kinda filler wire, argon usage, weld/base color, stainless fillet brazing, bikini lugs, flux this, prep that. Lets face it, there are many more techniques being used these days than 40 years ago.

I‘ve seen first hand how a simple horizontal force cycle fatigue test reveled several major flaws in how a welded ti frame had been executed in a company with a highly respected 40+ year history relying on tried and true methods.

If a new builder is being encouraged to spend cash on piles of lugs and tubes for dozens or hundreds of test joints then what is another few hundred on a test sample in the fashion of what the builder wishes to hang his shingle on.

I am not trying to oversimplify it but when a new builder feels he has consistent results from consistent methods/process, why not have a 3rd party verification? I know of a shop in California that will do a front end fatigue test for as little as $150. I hear of a Colo firm that does the full suite for under $500.

[Craddock]

When am I ready?

David Hieatt puts it this way:

There is never a right time to start.
There’s a point on a runway during take off that a plane reaches V1 speed. Once it passes V1, it has reached the point of no return. The point where take off cannot be aborted. It has to take off. Or crash. In order to determine its V1 speed every plane will factor in its weight, wind-speed, weather conditions, slope, length of runway etc. So although there’s not a physical line drawn on each runway, it’s there.
But when it comes to starting business, there’s no calculation to tell us when the right time is. No marker on a runway for us.
So what happens? We defer. We put barriers up to justify not starting. ‘The economy isn’t great’. ‘I’ve got a big mortgage’. ‘I need more experience’. But as you put those barriers up, only you can tear them down.
Indeed, there will never be a right time to start. Once you understand that, you can begin.

Hiut Denim - There is never a right time to start.

[Craddock]

Bureau Veritas will test a frame for a reasonable fee. This is where I go.

Bicycles Compliance Services

[dogrange]

I know this drags it further of track for the start of the thread but does the liability of the product only extend to the first owner/customer and if they sell it the liability ceases? We always here that warranty is only ever for the first purchaser but what about with liability?

I'm no expert on bicycle liability law, but in the U.S., generally liability will follow the product no matter how many hands it has been through if the plaintiff can show that the failure was intrinsic to the frame (i.e., not caused by the user).

[crumpton]

but will not protect once the policy is terminated. in other words, 3 years after you shut down your short lived career as a builder and let your policy go.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I believe the EN test protocols are blind to material,

BOOOM thats why we sat in on DIN + an added a bit of in put to that

we used to have something called a 2 banger for yeild test basically carbon frames would sit on the fatigue rigs forever but were still failing and it becomes very obvious why

now some times you could trace a failure back and then when for example there was a big law suit they might call people in who did this engineering stuff (did you know theres no load case for a bicycle rolling backwards and then applying a brake (well it tears the inserts out of some carbon frames and companies get sued) as it would if you mistakenly got it wrong on a steep incline on an mtb or road bike

well a two banger you could pretty much guarantee a fatigue failure after the first impact,( youll know a second large impact is the hidden ordanance nick) no one thought to see if this might be relevant considering the mode of failure isnt fatige in carbon a good proportion of the time (we were never told how many failures occured because of impact though it was pretty obvious by the way the frame failed)

[Mike Mcdermid]

Any recommendations for testing agencies Mike? I'm about ready to send three frames out for testing but I haven't really looked at where or how yet.

I use Veritas because the insurance has to have a baseline that if it goes wrong we had crossed the I's and dotted the T's

But im working with someone to bring the data in house because

a they do it for everyone else have loose lips and word could get out what other things we are doing, i recall talking to him and pointing out what was wrong with the EN tests however its the standard for europe however lowball

b personally from experience and speaking with someone whos a wizard and can make me the gear and seems to beat me to the recorders on ebay i need/want to datalog against what straingauges are saying i think i would rather have control over a realworld result than an arbitrary test but thats just what we did in F1 so some things stick

[Michael Gordon]

but will not protect once the policy is terminated. in other words, 3 years after you shut down your short lived career as a builder and let your policy go.

This is why you have to set up a corporation. The corporation holds the policy, and the corporation sells the frames. Once the corporation is dissolved and the policy is terminated, that is when liability ends (legally speaking as I understand it).

If you are going to sell, set yourself up as a corporation and get insurance. But just to rehash it one more time... know that you are selling a good product. The insurance is there to protect the user and the seller in the UNLIKELY event that there is an issue, not in the LIKELY event due to poor quality as one continues to figure things out. This goes for anything, not just frame building.

[Mike Mcdermid]

This is why you have to set up a corporation. The corporation holds the policy, and the corporation sells the frames. Once the corporation is dissolved and the policy is terminated, that is when liability ends (legally speaking as I understand it).

If you are going to sell, set yourself up as a corporation and get insurance. But just to rehash it one more time... know that you are selling a good product. The insurance is there to protect the user and the seller in the UNLIKELY event that there is an issue, not in the LIKELY event due to poor quality as one continues to figure things out. This goes for anything, not just frame building.

This sounds like how it work here in the UK if you set up a Limited Liability Company the company is a seperate legal entity providing your not criminally negligent you know knowingly selling shit thats dangerous could be considered negligent ,the Insurance and liabilities lie with the company ,as a director if you do something knowingly dangerous sure theres no protection but if the Company goes bust claims wise it dies with the company hence companies that go out of business cannot be sued unless negligence was displayed or can be proven, however there are some folks who know all the loopholes still sell complete shit and get away with the odd hundred deaths here and there

[crumpton]

not so much for me. it is the builders responsibility and it should not be shrugged off on some dissolved corporation when he/she realizes the dream wasn't all that romantic.

plus here in merica, the lawyers do what they call "piercing the corporate veil" so incorporating to protect ones self in a one man show doesn't really work. incorporating in the one man show is about avoiding self employment taxes in the full profit. dig?

This is why you have to set up a corporation. The corporation holds the policy, and the corporation sells the frames. Once the corporation is dissolved and the policy is terminated, that is when liability ends (legally speaking as I understand it).

If you are going to sell, set yourself up as a corporation and get insurance. But just to rehash it one more time... know that you are selling a good product. The insurance is there to protect the user and the seller in the UNLIKELY event that there is an issue, not in the LIKELY event due to poor quality as one continues to figure things out. This goes for anything, not just frame building.

[EricKeller]

from what I've heard, "piercing the corporate veil" really isn't that hard any more, particularly for corporations that really are sole proprietorships. I'm sure it depends on the state. It's too bad you can't buy tail insurance (that's what medical malpractice insurance after the practitioner retires is called). If framebuilding insurance costs $3k now, it's going up far faster than inflation.

[Mark Kelly]

I use Veritas because the insurance has to have a baseline that if it goes wrong we had crossed the I's and dotted the T's

But im working with someone to bring the data in house because

a they do it for everyone else have loose lips and word could get out what other things we are doing, i recall talking to him and pointing out what was wrong with the EN tests however its the standard for europe however lowball

b personally from experience and speaking with someone whos a wizard and can make me the gear and seems to beat me to the recorders on ebay i need/want to datalog against what straingauges are saying i think i would rather have control over a realworld result than an arbitrary test but thats just what we did in F1 so some things stick

Mike

Thanks for that. This should be a separate topic, but regarding your point b: one of the best things to come out of the show in Melbourne was a conversation with some boffins from DSTO* regarding using "cheap" IR video cameras for thermal stress analysis: they use it to validate FEA results for fatigue stress in parts for defence aircraft. They've made the software available and they reckon it would work for bike frames, I'm trying to get a group together in Melbourne to try it out: the "cheap" cameras are $5k each.

* DSTO = Defence Science and Technology Organisation, basically the military version of the CSIRO.

[crumpton]

snip... It's too bad you can't buy tail insurance (that's what medical malpractice insurance after the practitioner retires is called). If framebuilding insurance costs $3k now, it's going up far faster than inflation.

i think you can. when the time comes, i'll be looking into it. not in the near future.

what some might not know about the liability insurance most of us builders carry, premiums are raised not just by increases in volume but also years in consistent production. i'm guessing they see it as cumulative risk? the opposite should be available after retirement, no new sales and a diminishing risk.