What I've Noticed -

[David Tollefson]

It was impressed upon me here and on a couple other forums that once a frame leaves my immediate family, insurance is a must. Not just for MY protection, but for the protection of the person who might be injured riding one of my frames. Those threads that you've already been pointed toward are gold. My own policy now is $1750 per year, and goes up when sales volume goes up (I think the next bracket starts around $20K per year, if my memory serves correctly). I consider it a cost of business, along with the license and raw materials. Letting a frame out without having that insurance is what I would consider foolhardy.

Edit to add: I went through the same agency that e-RICHIE just posted above.

[crumpton]

just remember boys and girls, letting ANY frames go into the wild is a lifetime commitment. it will follow you long after you have given up the building. so consider that before venturing into a hip fling short lived romance.

[shirk]

How many builders on here have actually put frames through EN or ASTM testing?

If a noob built just a handful of bikes yet can prove his work passes industry standard testing would people still think their not ready till they've spent more time at the bench?

[eBAUMANN]

How many builders on here have actually put frames through EN or ASTM testing?

If a noob built just a handful of bikes yet can prove his work passes industry standard testing would people still think their not ready till they've spent more time at the bench?

Kinda sounds like nobody really cares what you make so long as you have insurance...

[dashDustin]

And Instagram

[chasea]

And Instagram

That's a course at UBI, right?

-L. Chase Anderson

[e-RICHIE]

Kinda sounds like nobody really cares what you make so long as you have insurance...

That wouldn't include me. And I don't think it's inferred in Rody's post back to his link. I don't care what you (one) make for yourself. And, I'm happy to help you do a better job at it. The discussion is more about taking that help and then making a business with it. The ability to make a frame is just that. Having the skills (and I don't mean business skills) to translate making a frame into becoming a framebuilder spans a wide learning curve. I'm bad with analogies, but you wouldn't buy a camera, have a career lens-man translate the owner's manual onto lay English for you, and then become a commercial shooter yourself. Well, as I mentioned the other day, it's 2015 and I've reconciled that nothing surprises me.

There seems to be this underlying tone from folks on their fourth frame saying they're ready. And folks who actually trained for the career they have saying, hey - you're not ready. To repeat myself, it appears that the only qualifier of being ready is a client and a check. It's an abstract feeling, so I can't articulate it well. At the core, I think there's something inherently wrong with the system when it allows this to happen. But then again, I used the term dilettante earlier. I don't expect many of them to stand around too long.

PS adding this: This has nothing to do with whatever is shown online, or how great folks think a bicycle looks in a blog gallery, or how many weeks it took to fabricate. According to my opinion, it's about the integrity of the trade, and all that the word implies.

[dashDustin]

That's a course at UBI, right?

-L. Chase Anderson

Or Barnett's. I get them confused.

[Mark Kelly]

Kinda pertinent to this discussion: Hipster Business Models.

[seanile]

i notice a disconnect in that you keep referencing the preparation necessary prior to going into business/making a career of it/starting in the profession, whereas eric has expressed that that is not his intention, and he isnt making money off these. instead, it is simply a hobby for him as a cycle enthusiast and artist with a pension for functional works of art.
yes, it's possible, people can think of bicycles as art.

[eBAUMANN]

If not learning from another established builder (or 2 in my case) over the course of 6 months, countless practice joints, and hours upon hours of reading and studying what little tricks and tips I could glean from the internet, other builders blogs and flickr streams (e-RICHIE I'm lookin at you) what other path is there? I can name more than a handful of "respected" builders who flew off to Rifle for a couple weeks, came back home and launched their brand, one frame in the bag...thats ok but my path is somehow tainted? lacking integrity?

[chasea]

If not learning from another established builder (or 2 in my case) over the course of 6 months, countless practice joints, and hours upon hours of reading and studying what little tricks and tips I could glean from the internet, other builders blogs and flickr streams (e-RICHIE I'm lookin at you) what other path is there? I can name more than a handful of "respected" builders who flew off to Rifle for a couple weeks, came back home and launched their brand, one frame in the bag...thats ok but my path is somehow tainted? lacking integrity?

Your inbox is full.

[e-RICHIE]

Eric. When I started this thread, I wasn't talking about you. I had no idea you were even in the conversation here until someone linked Watson's story. PS I'm sure there are plenty of resources available to anyone who wants to be in the trade. Clearly you don't. As noted, it's not your intention. But for those who want this, it takes an investment in time, and probably some relocation. My gut tells me that folks who want to learn want the sex in the first week. I worked full time in London for 8 months and never was allowed to handle a torch. No - I'm not suggesting mine is the only way. But if you want to learn, you don't camp out with a framebuilder who's also quite new himself. He has his own load to bear and every moment you're in seek mode is one he isn't earning a living. There are plenty of production shops that will take someone with no skills and, ultimately, transform him into a person with skills. At the far end of the cycle, you almost become a competent framebuilder. In 2015, it's highly unlikely a young person will give himself up for an ordeal like this.

I can show you how to make a frame. But I can't teach you how to make frames.

[eBAUMANN]

I also had no idea I was in this conversation until someone else alerted me that I had been mentioned, so I figured I would stop by and at least attempt to defend myself.

Just to be perfectly clear about how I learned, there was no "camping out," there was no "seek mode" preventing anyone from earning a living. There was an agreement between 2 professionals. I am a professional photographer and photo retoucher who has provided Bryan with literally hundreds (if not thousands at this point) of photos of him, his frames, and his bikes. I charged him nothing for this. I did it because I believed in what he was doing, I was fascinated by it, and I wanted to help him because he was my friend. In exchange, 5 years later, I asked if he would teach me, ON HIS TIME, evenings after I got out of work and he was done for the day. He was more than happy to do it and the experience even inspired him to begin teaching formal classes over at the Artisans Asylum in Somerville.

THAT, is how it all went down.

So please, do not suggest that I am some leech looking to pick the bare minimum of information from the brain of the builders around me in order to build some un-insured death traps for my friends.

[EricKeller]

Fair enough. I still just have no idea what insurance would even cost, so its a little hard for me to form an opinion in one direction or the other. Obviously I dont want to see anyone get left high and dry (and injured) as a result of some accident, can anyone recommend a resource for looking into rates/coverage options?

I don't know what your personal financial situation is like, but the reason I am not building frames as a business really goes back to insurance. First off, I really don't think that any of my frames would fail because of something I did. However, as an engineer, that isn't really enough. Let's say that Long Shen sends me a bad downtube lug that cracks in such a way that the front end falls off. Or a bad crown. And then all the skill I have at brazing really doesn't do a damn thing for me. But more importantly, isn't there a better way for me to make a living that doesn't expose my family to this risk? They would go after me in a big way, because we have assets. And the insurance that we can get is "claims made," which means that it covers claims made in the year that you hold the policy. So you can't stop paying for it as long as your frames are being used. Are you really willing to buy insurance for life? I decided that I had to come up with a plan where that made sense, and the kind of volumes that would take were not going to happen any time soon. So I didn't go into business

[nahtnoj]

To repeat myself, it appears that the only qualifier of being ready is a client and a check. It's an abstract feeling, so I can't articulate it well.

My gut tells me that folks who want to learn want the sex in the first week.

If the girl (or guy...or whatever...2015 and all) is willing, and appropriate prophylactic measures are employed, the worst thing that can happen is some bad sex.

-Jon Knauer

[eBAUMANN]

Is a frame a "product" if you aren't a business? Is it a "product" if you don't sell it?
Are you liable if you give someone a "gift" or a "sculpture" that also happens to be functional and they choose to ride it?
Would you still be liable if they signed a waiver acknowledging the risks associated with using said sculpture?

There seem to be a lot of gray areas here, especially once you strip away the business/client/product aspect of things.

[devlin]

I know this drags it further of track for the start of the thread but does the liability of the product only extend to the first owner/customer and if they sell it the liability ceases? We always here that warranty is only ever for the first purchaser but what about with liability?

[David Tollefson]

For some reason now I feel compelled to repeat my earlier point that insurance wasn't just to cover my butt, but also to cover whomever might be riding one of my frames if a failure should cause injury.

[Mike Mcdermid]

How many builders on here have actually put frames through EN or ASTM testing?

If a noob built just a handful of bikes yet can prove his work passes industry standard testing would people still think their not ready till they've spent more time at the bench?

me lots of them