What I've Noticed -

[e-RICHIE]

Sad, but mostly true... There are exceptions, builders who don't advertise or in any way market themselves and what they do, but whom have earned a reputation and have as much work as they want or can handle. One I can think of is often said to be hard to contact, and along with the quality of his work, is part of why he's slowly gaining a cult following in London.

I wonder how this type of builder would make headway in today's world of social media hype...

Regardless of the broadcast vehicle, or even eschewing it completely, the well trained and prepared
will endure and find a clientele. On the other hand, the dilettante will have a short life cycle atmo.

[incepi]

In both the CycleExif and Radavist articles there was little mention made of the technical aspects of the frame. The tubing was merely listed at the bottom and the geometry was completely ignored. Construction details were not examined.

I'm curious as to why the writer and editor ignored these subjects.

As a reader, I would like to know why a custom builder selected a certain type of tubing and geometry and detail for a particular rider. That is what makes a custom frame(and custom frame builder) interesting and compelling, regardless of experience or talent in assembling a frame.

[Britishbane]

In both the CycleExif and Radavist articles there was little mention made of the technical aspects of the frame. The tubing was merely listed at the bottom and the geometry was completely ignored. Construction details were not examined.

I'm curious as to why the writer and editor ignored these subjects.

As a reader, I would like to know why a custom builder selected a certain type of tubing and geometry and detail for a particular rider. That is what makes a custom frame(and custom frame builder) interesting and compelling, regardless of experience or talent in assembling a frame.

Because at it's heart its a very superficial blog, a blog about cool shit, not the best bikes or even the most well constructed. Take it for what its worth. Its all fun.
Matt Fackner

[Britishbane]

Because at it's heart its a very superficial blog, a blog about cool shit, not the best bikes or even the most well constructed. Take it for what its worth. Its all fun.

Please note I am appalled by my apostrophe usage above.
Matt Fackner

[Eric Estlund]

It seems any time experienced folks discuss concerns with the trade there is some reading of that discussion as old guy protectionism, curmudgeonliness and a ripping on the new folks. I'd argue that is more the exception to the rule. Most of the times I have these discussions it's more about the integrity of the trade and making sure new folks are putting out quality goods as opposed to new guys competing or selling to old guys customers. The discussion is less about sales, and more about the state of the craft and it's development/ integrity. I've never felt those that came before resented another player, and all of the feedback I've received has been to help me step up my game and do better. Sometimes that involves pointing out flaws or missteps, but that's how we learn.

[e-RICHIE]

It seems any time experienced folks discuss concerns with the trade there is some reading of that discussion as old guy protectionism, curmudgeonliness and a ripping on the new folks. I'd argue that is more the exception to the rule. Most of the times I have these discussions it's more about the integrity of the trade and making sure new folks are putting out quality goods as opposed to new guys competing or selling to old guys customers. The discussion is less about sales, and more about the state of the craft and it's development/ integrity. I've never felt those that came before resented another player, and all of the feedback I've received has been to help me step up my game and do better. Sometimes that involves pointing out flaws or missteps, but that's how we learn.

Agreed atmo.
From my first post in my thread here...

Framebuilding seems a bit watered down these days and it's very noticeable. The mediocre (I won't even mention the bad...) work is becoming too ubiquitous.

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

[Mike Mcdermid]

i think this is quite pertinent for those that missed it

7.5.15 | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

richard directed me to it as i missed it first time round too

[Eric Estlund]

I should also comment that trying to keep professional integrity at all levels is very different than advocating for a guild. Discussion of minimum standards is different than "mandatory" standards, and in my experience is recommended for proficiency rather than oversight or control of an individuals output by "the group".

[eBAUMANN]

In both the CycleExif and Radavist articles there was little mention made of the technical aspects of the frame. The tubing was merely listed at the bottom and the geometry was completely ignored. Construction details were not examined.

I'm curious as to why the writer and editor ignored these subjects.

As a reader, I would like to know why a custom builder selected a certain type of tubing and geometry and detail for a particular rider. That is what makes a custom frame(and custom frame builder) interesting and compelling, regardless of experience or talent in assembling a frame.

The text in both of those articles was pulled from an email I wrote to both John and Adam, it was never meant to be the "write up" with the photos, merely background information from which a short write up could be crafted. John liked it and asked if I minded him posting it verbatim, I said "i guess so," and that was that. Had I thought that you guys were the target audience for a post on THE RADAVIST, maybe I would have gone a little more into detail about the build specs and tubing selection. Its a bike CULTURE blog, not a framebuilding blog...but, since you are so curious, here is a little more info for you to evaluate:

ST = 57.5cm
TT = 58cm
HT 174mm
BB-D 70mm
CS 415mm
HTA 73.5
STA 73

I modeled the geometry off of a firefly I own, as well as a storck visioner which I used to own. I found that both frames were equally at home on a century ride as they are carving a high speed turn in a crit, and I was hoping to capture a bit of that in this new frame. The geometry is nothing crazy (just look at the photos) because it didnt need to be, because I am a fairly standard proportioned individual and have never really NEEDED custom geometry to be comfortable on a bike.

As far as tubing selection goes, I wanted the frame to be light and stiff, I also knew I wanted to use Life stays, as I have enjoyed the stiffness they provide on previous frames I have owned. I have several DOS frames already and enjoy the way they ride, so I went with a Life tubeset. I am 6-2 and 180lbs, a fairly strong rider who powers up rather than spins up. So far I have 125mi on the bike and it feels FANTASTIC. If I were my own customer I would be buying myself several beers.

One interesting challenge that I faced was the seat stays. I knew I wanted do a fast-back seat cluster with the stays attaching to the binder, because most people who used Llewellyn lugs do NOT do that. It also just looks awesome. So, I had to use smaller diameter stays in order to have any chance of fitting them into the tiny amount of space available on that lug. I was bouncing a few ideas off Bryan (Royal H) one day when he suggested I use double taper 14mm stays...which was the perfect solution! It also allowed me to add a little (necessary) detail to the frame in the form of the sleeves at the base of the stays. I think it came out great considering it was my first attempt at either operation.

Anyways, if you have any other questions about me, the frame, the process, whatever, I am more than happy to discuss. I always appreciate hearing real feedback from "those who know" and I am not afraid of criticism (thanks art school).

[Rody]

Anyways, if you have any other questions about me, the frame, the process, whatever, I am more than happy to discuss.

Eric,

Along the lines of protecting the integrity and value of the custom frame building industry for the future, I have these two questions that pertain not only to you, but to all who are constructing vehicles for others;

Despite the fact that you do not anticipate ever operating as a business, do you have specific liability insurance to protect the health and livelihood of those friends who are riding your creations?

Have you taken legal steps to protect yourself and family from financial liability if something should happen to someone on your bike?

Too often bicycles are thought of as toys or hobbies, not a vehicle that has the potential to change an individuals life (for good or bad). This thought process extends across the spectrum, from those who build professionally to those who just want to share their love of fabrication with others.

Understand that if you operate as a professional or a hobbiest, those on your creations deserve protection, and you are responsible/accountable to provide it.

cheers,

rody

[eBAUMANN]

Hey Rody, thanks for the question, I do not have any specific insurance for my framebuilding, mainly because I make so few frames it is hard for me to justify the expense. That said, I completely agree that it is important and certainly something I would look into should I begin to build frames as a business. For now, all 4 of the frames I have made (that werent for me) are in the hands of friends who understand the situation they are entering into (my not having insurance) just as I did when I bought my first custom frame from a builder (who is now insured) but wasn't at the time.

Question for you/anyone who might know, but wouldn't an individuals personal health insurance cover any injuries that might be incurred in the event of a crash? I once crashed as the result of a hub failure...emergency room and all that...my insurance covered it. I didn't have to go after the company that made the hub, it wasn't necessary.

Again, I'm not trying to dismiss your concern, its quite valid, I'm just not in a financial position where I can justify that expense. I am not making any money building frames right now, literally ZERO dollars, if anything I'm losing money doing it, which is fine with me as this is the only way to learn.

Given the choice (keep building without insurance vs stop building because of insurance), can you honestly say you would just stop building?

EDIT
On second though, what does framebuilder's insurance even cost?
I assume (based on my limited experience and general dislike of the insurance industry) that its probably more than I can afford, but to be honest, I haven't even looked into it yet.
Do you have any good resources you could share?

[e-RICHIE]

Given the choice (keep building without insurance vs stop building because of insurance), can you honestly say you would just stop building?

I wasn't asked, but will answer. PS my first landlord in 1976 was also my insurance agent and was incredulous that I'd consider a business making vehicles for others and not have a policy that takes care of worst case situations, and what-ifs. As an early adopter, insurance seemed normal and not a warning sign from Big Brother. I always considered it just another line item in my ledgers. If the rates went up, I passed it on to the market by raising pricing according. No big deal.

The answer to your question is this: if I had no insurance (no matter what the reason), I wouldn't build for others. I respect others who'd act similarly. It's tied to why so many of us are here to help you make better frames for yourselves, which is quite different than condoning the helped also go into business. Doing that requires much more practice than the average FNG ever commits to.

[eBAUMANN]

Fair enough. I still just have no idea what insurance would even cost, so its a little hard for me to form an opinion in one direction or the other. Obviously I dont want to see anyone get left high and dry (and injured) as a result of some accident, can anyone recommend a resource for looking into rates/coverage options?

[e-RICHIE]

Fair enough. I still just have no idea what insurance would even cost, so its a little hard for me to form an opinion in one direction or the other. Obviously I dont want to see anyone get left high and dry (and injured) as a result of some accident, can anyone recommend a resource for looking into rates/coverage options?

You'd have a hard time getting the minimal coverage for less than three thousand per year. And while I know this seems like I'm evading the issue, why not call your local agent (I use mine) and see if he'll get a quote, and perhaps bundle it, the car, and that new house you mentioned above, and get all the savings that one stop shopping might afford you.

[Todd Mosley]

Question for you/anyone who might know, but wouldn't an individuals personal health insurance cover any injuries that might be incurred in the event of a crash? I once crashed as the result of a hub failure...emergency room and all that...my insurance covered it. I didn't have to go after the company that made the hub, it wasn't necessary.

There is a thread about insurance that covers the topic and you may want to read through it and ask more questions there.

To answer your question, IF a person has health insurance, it very well may cover SOME of the medical expenses. It wouldn't cover things like co-pays, etc. If the person had a hospital bill of $100,000.00, the insured could be responsible for some percent, say 40%. That's 40,000 reasons to go after you.

There are also things that health insurance doesn't cover for which you may be liable such as lost wages if one is temporarily or permanently unable to work because of the crash. Or, compensation for wrongful death if the person dies. You didn't go after the hub maker, but you COULD have. If someone died because your frame failed, are you positive their family wouldn't go after you? What would you do if they did?

[Rody]

Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Food for thought...

[lumpy]

Fair enough. I still just have no idea what insurance would even cost, so its a little hard for me to form an opinion in one direction or the other. Obviously I dont want to see anyone get left high and dry (and injured) as a result of some accident, can anyone recommend a resource for looking into rates/coverage options?

Call an insurance agent and talk to them. This is what they do. Since you aren't selling your frames, you might be able to just add an umbrella policy to whatever insurance you carry now - auto, homeowners, etc. Umbrellas are cheap - a couple hundred dollars per year for a million dollars of coverage, is a rule of thumb. But you will need to look at the policy language carefully to make sure there are no exclusions that could be construed to apply.

Edward Carman

[dgaddis]

You'd have a hard time getting the minimal coverage for less than three thousand per year. And while I know this seems like I'm evading the issue, why not call your local agent (I use mine) and see if he'll get a quote, and perhaps bundle it, the car, and that new house you mentioned above, and get all the savings that one stop shopping might afford you.

I build wheels, not frames, but:

I had a hell of a time renewing my insurance this year. My rate went up thanks to my sales volume going up, but I felt like I was getting ripped off. No one local could help me. Everyone I spoke with (nearly a dozen local agents at various companies) either:
A - Didn't know how to classify the risk and couldn't give a quote at all
B - The quote was way above the price I had been given to renew.

Bicycle Industry Liability Insurance | Endorsed by NBCMA | Comprehensive Plan

That's who I use, and the minimum cost is way less $3k a year. The price, in large part, is dependent on your sales volume ($$). And it turns out, for me at least, that the price they gave me is way better than anyone else could give me. Another wheel builder (in another state, and not a member of this forum FYI) only pays about 1/5th what I pay, but I suspect if he were to dive into the details he'd find he doesn't have the coverage he needs. One company quoted me something like $500 for the year, which seemed too good to be true, and after asking a few questions I realized that was just a general liability (if someone fell on the stairs while picking up a set of wheels), but didn't cover finished products (if a wheel exploded and someone crashed).

This is a topic for a seperate thread, but, it's amazing how little people know about what I do (build wheels), and I imagine it's the same for frame builders. Outside the bicycle industry/specialists, forget it, they don't have a clue. One insurance company, who is endorsed by the National Bicycle Dealers Association, after I explained what I did, they told me "we only cover retailers, not manufacturers." I tried to explain that bike shops (who they supposedly specialize in) also build wheels, which is nothing more than assembling parts made by others. They wouldn't give me a quote. WTF.

[e-RICHIE]

I build wheels, not frames, but:

My local agent in Greenfield, Massachusetts writes a policy through RPS (Risk Placement Services) in Poulsbo, Washington. If your local agent can't do the legwork and align with this company, perhaps he's not hungry enough.

[dashDustin]

Interesting that the first comment echoes your concern, and the builder's reply is that he has no intention of selling bikes. If that's true, then it reinforces my thoughts of The Radavist.

To get emotional validation via mass quantities of likes on Facebook and Instagram, obvs.

Its simpler than that just add ENVE to everything

This is the most awesomeness on a single page (without pictures) that I have experienced in a long time.