What I've Noticed -

[steve garro]

I am not one to beat on a dead horse... is this something you guys can expand on?

Nobody could come to an agreement on direction nor had time to dedicate and as such it's sleeping.

- Garro.

[ParagonMachineWorks]

This got posted today on The Radavist and while I've only skimmed this thread, I believe this is the epitome of what Tom is bringing up. After doing a little research, I would be surprised if this builder has more than 5 frames under his belt, yet somehow he's landed a piece on the front page of one of the most frequented bicycle blogs.

I have no idea who the man behind Imshi Cycles is, and I have no idea what his history or skills consist of. This is strictly to bring to light a data point for this thread.

[edoz]

Interesting that the first comment echoes your concern, and the builder's reply is that he has no intention of selling bikes. If that's true, then it reinforces my thoughts of The Radavist.

[mmoore]

Goes to show you good paint goes a long ways?

[dgaddis]

Interesting that the first comment echoes your concern, and the builder's reply is that he has no intention of selling bikes. If that's true, then it reinforces my thoughts of The Radavist.

Why develop a brand, a logo, and a website, with no intention of selling anything??

[zetroc]

Why develop a brand, a logo, and a website, with no intention of selling anything??

To get emotional validation via mass quantities of likes on Facebook and Instagram, obvs.

[Michael Gordon]

Why develop a brand, a logo, and a website, with no intention of selling anything??

Anyone who builds, even hobbyists, need to put something on their down tubes and head tubes.

Besides, everyone needs to start somewhere. Perhaps he has no intention of selling today, tomorrow or even a year from now... if ever. If X years (Pick a number) down the road he does decides to hand out the shingle and take orders, it is better to have laid the foundation earlier than later. Until then, I look at the guy who creates the brand, logo, & website without the intention to sell as just taking his passion full circle.

And yes, "emotional validation via mas quantities of likes on Facebook and Instagram"... Everyone enjoys recognition for their hard work. I see nothing wrong with this.

[e-RICHIE]

This got posted today on The Radavist and while I've only skimmed this thread, I believe this is the epitome of what Tom is bringing up. After doing a little research, I would be surprised if this builder has more than 5 frames under his belt, yet somehow he's landed a piece on the front page of one of the most frequented bicycle blogs.

I have no idea who the man behind Imshi Cycles is, and I have no idea what his history or skills consist of. This is strictly to bring to light a data point for this thread.

I don't know who Tom is (referenced above). But for the record, I know Eric, and I also know John and like what The Radavist as a website. Regarding the link and the story's synergy with the thread, here's an opinion. The industry pyramid seems completely inverted compared to the one I knew and came up in. The niche was once the high peak from which all innovation emanated. Then, product managers at Illustrious Bicycle Company Inc. would mine the ideas and find ways to dumb them down so that theirs might have some of the élan that ours did, but at price points that consumers would love.

Very few people now train for the task. Everyone wants to be adored a season after that first class, or seven frames after the first one made, or tries to capitalize of an award won at NAHBS. It's all so ass-fucking-backwards now. But, it's also 2015 and no one can afford the time it takes to learn the procedures and routines, and the wide range of design parameters it takes to be able to start a brand with any kind of intuitive skills, much less a history of trial and error that would attest to his at least trying to work out the ordeal before he gets an Instagram account.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Goes to show you good paint goes a long ways?

Its simpler than that just add ENVE to everything

[ljm]

.. Everyone enjoys recognition for their hard work. I see nothing wrong with this.

I do, if that recognition reinforces a misguided self-belief that a product is of genuine quality, value and worth; there needs to be an understanding of the source and therefore validity of that recognition.

[waterlaz]

I do, if that recognition reinforces a misguided self-belief that a product is of genuine quality, value and worth; there needs to be an understanding of the source and therefore validity of that recognition.

I'll tell that to my girlfriend next time she cooks dinner and expects a comment on the taste of the food from me :D

[eBAUMANN]

Anyone who builds, even hobbyists, need to put something on their down tubes and head tubes.

Besides, everyone needs to start somewhere. Perhaps he has no intention of selling today, tomorrow or even a year from now... if ever. If X years (Pick a number) down the road he does decides to hand out the shingle and take orders, it is better to have laid the foundation earlier than later. Until then, I look at the guy who creates the brand, logo, & website without the intention to sell as just taking his passion full circle.

And yes, "emotional validation via mas quantities of likes on Facebook and Instagram"... Everyone enjoys recognition for their hard work. I see nothing wrong with this.

Hey guys, just figured I would chime in as your questions and concerns are obviously quite valid, and I would likely be thinking the very same thing if I saw what you saw pop up today on the Radavist/CycleExif.

Firstly, in regards to the branding and selling of frames, etc etc - I made a brand for the frames because I knew I wanted to make a few of them and it made sense to develop something to stick on the downtube, plain and simple. I think most folks who build even one frame come up with something to stick on the downtube, so its really not that odd...as far as my creating a "brand" and a "website," you are looking at about 15 minutes of illustrator work from a good friend (and owner of frame #4) and a TUMBLR blog...yes, my "website" is a tumblr template. It took 5 minutes to make.

I grew to love cycling here in Boston. And in Boston, there are a lot of framebuilders. I had the good fortune to meet and befriend a few of these builders very early on in my cycling life and have been hanging around their shops and photographing their work for years, always knowing it was something I one day wanted to try myself. Bryan (Royal H Cycles) and Nao (Tomii Cycles) are 2 of these builders, good friends who showed me the ins and outs of lugged and fillet frame construction. They, like any other responsible builder, would not have "released me" out into the world to carry on building if they did not have the confidence that I could do so safely. Think Yamaguchi/Doug Fattic/UBI...

As far as taking orders and turning this into a business...not gonna happen, not any time soon at least. I have a day job. I work 40 hours a week and work on frames in between riding and racing year round. Being friends with a lot of Boston builders, I have seen how hard it is to make a living as a builder and I have no interest in entering back into a world of what is essentially freelance work (I used to be a freelance photographer before taking a full time gig). On top of that, I have no interest in taking orders that would have otherwise gone to the guys who do this full time, supporting their families with their work, etc etc.

My bike showing up on the Radavist and Cycle Exif was no accident, I know John, I know Adam. They have both been following my pursuits for over a year now and I finally had a frame of my own that I was truly proud of and was able to properly photograph (because it was mine) and I wanted to share it with whoever might be interested. Simple as that.

I have made 6 frames over the past year. Putting dozens of hours into each to make sure they were each as perfect as I could possibly make them, asking questions of my mentors along the way, learning and growing as a builder with each frame I complete. Is there some better way to learn that I am not aware of?

I have nothing but the utmost respect for framebuilding as a craft, cycling as a passion, and all of you as professionals in the business.
I consider it an honor to have even been mentioned here, even if in a negative light.

[ljm]

I'll tell that to my girlfriend next time she cooks dinner and expects a comment on the taste of the food from me :D

Ha! Well that is kind of the same thing, but I presume she's not opening your dining room up to paying guests, based on your affirmation!

[bencooper]

I'm not particularly fussed if someone builds two frames, then sets themself up in business as a framebuilder. Because that's what I did, long before social media - almost even before the internet. Do they have the ability to make a frame that won't kill someone? And do they have insurance just in case they do? If the answer to both is yes, then they have as much right to be in business as I do.

Some of this talk does sound a lot like the stuff from the old guilds - you must build 100 frames, you must be apprenticed to a master framebuilder, you must travel to a distant city to learn the secret skills of the craft. If you don't d that you're not a proper framebuilder. Could easily be a bunch of master stonemasons moaning about some uppity young cathedral builders a thousand years ago ;-)

[ljm]

The problem perhaps, is allowing that freedom, enabling the innately able and talented, yet managing the self belief of those who perhaps should seek further support and guidance and those who simply should not persue the dream.

[MrkiMedo]

I have read this thread, and many other posts that echo same general sentiment and frustration with people with practically no experience making their frames, putting a website, and acquiring likes. I agree it is upside down, but I am not sure what is the scale of a problem: a disaster or annoyance?

I tend to think it is the later, why? Because the real likes are green dollars, and people waiting in line for several years to get a frame from established builder. Likes are cheap, build waiting lists are not.

There is also an issue, that people rushing to the build might give custom and/or hand built bicycle a bad reputation. That is an valid issue. On the other hand maybe large number of people currently buzzing about hand made bicycles attract more interested buyers to that niche. And those new buyers are way more likely to buy from experienced builder, than to burn their hard earned money, with some rookie.

[ljm]

I think in many instances this may be true, however frustrating it may be for those with tallent and skill, starting out, trying to gain a reputation.

But also, as those likes illustrate, as discerning as customers like to think they are (making men believe that they are sophisticated and discerning is fundamental to marketing to us, I'm told by those that know). So somewhere along the line some mediocre (or worse) work could well be sold. At the very least that takes a sale from a craftsman, new or established.

[e-RICHIE]

I think in many instances this may be true, however frustrating it may be for those with tallent and skill, starting out, trying to gain a reputation.

But also, as those likes illustrate, as discerning as customers like to think they are (making men believe that they are sophisticated and discerning is fundamental to marketing to us, I'm told by those that know). So somewhere along the line some mediocre (or worse) work could well be sold. At the very least that takes a sale from a craftsman, new or established.

Then there's this too -
You Must Be Able To Sell, Too | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

[mmoore]

Firstly, in regards to the branding and selling of frames, etc etc - I made a brand for the frames because I knew I wanted to make a few of them and it made sense to develop something to stick on the downtube, plain and simple. I think most folks who build even one frame come up with something to stick on the downtube, so its really not that odd

Looking at my first build that im finishing up now, I agree... having a "logo" or something on the bike would make it look more complete beyond just a solid shade of powder coating. no harm in that.

Im also not trying to build frames for anyone, but it was fun so I could see building a few more for myself or maybe friends.

[ljm]

Then there's this too -
You Must Be Able To Sell, Too | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

Sad, but mostly true... There are exceptions, builders who don't advertise or in any way market themselves and what they do, but whom have earned a reputation and have as much work as they want or can handle. One I can think of is often said to be hard to contact, and along with the quality of his work, is part of why he's slowly gaining a cult following in London.

I wonder how this type of builder would make headway in today's world of social media hype...