What I've Noticed -

[Mark Kelly]

I think a good start/corrective measure would be a Peer Review prior to posting on FNL.

This might apply to people working with traditional materials and methods, but I can't see how anyone can meaningfully review those of us who are doing new things.

How would any of you know if I've adequately prepped the base layers before winding the carbon layers, or indeed if I set up the filament winder properly?

[devlin]

The Collective was started a few years ago but there is also back story to it that is not so nice.

[incepi]

The Collective was started a few years ago but there is also back story to it that is not so nice.

What is that story?

[devlin]

No. All I'm saying is that it has been tried and didn't work out as expected. Its not my place.

[MrkiMedo]

IMHO, guilds are generally bad things, and are rarely justified now days. In short term they may positively influence quality of work/services delivered, but on the long run they tend to raise the barrier of entry to the point where healthy competition and innovation ceases, craft stagnates and gets completely replaced by something else (like industrial bicycle).

[bencooper]

A guild was also proposed in the UK - the problem is who's judging the applicants and to what standards? The problem in the UK was that the guild was proposed by well-meaning but relatively inexperienced builders who were proposing themselves able to judge the quality of work done by framebuilders who had been doing it for 30-40 years.

[ellisbriggs]

It actually amazes me how badly built a steel frame can be and not break. In the UK there was a company called orbit who used to sell mainly touring bikes. The were quite cheap but they used to market that they were "handbuilt".

We used to get them in regular for respray and sometimes when we'd shot blast them and find a gap between the lug edge and the end of the tube. Often the top tubes would be cut too short but they'd just braze them in the best they could.

We have a few magazines at work that we've saved where they won best of test.

It can be very frustrating when you try to do the job right but very few people actually notice.

One of the things which seems prevalent around new builders is brazing the seat stays directly to the seat tube well below the lug with no extra support. It takes nothing braze a sleeve there or a plate but it show a distinct lack of understanding about what they are doing.

Frame design of steel road frames has been built up over decades of feedback from racing cyclists both amateurs and pros who to them their bikes was just a tool not a piece of art. Bicycles should be designed to be ridden.

[Craddock]

A guild was also proposed in the UK - the problem is who's judging the applicants and to what standards? The problem in the UK was that the guild was proposed by well-meaning but relatively inexperienced builders who were proposing themselves able to judge the quality of work done by framebuilders who had been doing it for 30-40 years.

They're holding a guild meeting today.

[pruckelshaus]

Here's the quote of the day - "I've been doing this for 50 years...and I'm still learning"

[waterlaz]

One of the things which seems prevalent around new builders is brazing the seat stays directly to the seat tube well below the lug with no extra support. It takes nothing braze a sleeve there or a plate but it show a distinct lack of understanding about what they are doing.

Yeah. I've seen A LOT of beginners do the very same mistake and I am one of them :). I've fillet brazed the seat joint without almost no reinforcement to the 0.6mm seattube. I've felt that something is wrong here and added a reinforcement ring ontop though.

I think this should be mentioned in the top 10 of any list of tips for a newbe framebuilder.

[bencooper]

In the UK there was a company called orbit...

Oh good grief, yes - I could tell you stories about Orbit. It once took three goes for them to get canti bosses straight on some forks, for instance - they kept putting one 1cm higher than the other.

They're holding a guild meeting today.

In a pub? ;-)

A big problem - and this is with the entire bike industry not just framebuilding - is that most of it is done by people who aren't engineers. I include myself in this, a degree in astrophysics isn't of much practical use. So there's a lot of misunderstanding of forces, dynamics, what's actually happening, and a lot of reliance on what I think of as "cargo cult mechanics". In other words, "We've always built it this way, it's not broken, so we must be doing it the right way".

Seatstays are an interesting example - in my experience of repairs, they're probably the most likely tube to break (maybe joint tied with drive-side chainstays). Lots of people, including big companies, seem to think they're more for decoration than anything else - all those Raleighs with top eyes basically tack-brazed onto the side of the seat tube.

[EricKeller]

kept myself in beer back in college brazing seat stays back on. But as an engineer, I still rely on tradition and observed failures to make design decisions, i.e. cargo cult engineering. Sure, I could waste a month making an fea model of a frame, but one bad part from a supplier and the frame is going to break anyway. A friend convinced me never to advertise my engineering background wrt framebuilding, because it adds liability and misrepresents my processes.

[bencooper]

Yes, I don't mean to demean experience when I refer to cargo cult engineering - the problem is when it leads to not thinking about why things are done the way they are, and not thinking about whether there's a better way to do something.

[Craddock]

In a pub? ;-)

At the Reynolds factory in Birmingham.

[ellisbriggs]

Seatstays are an interesting example - in my experience of repairs, they're probably the most likely tube to break (maybe joint tied with drive-side chainstays). Lots of people, including big companies, seem to think they're more for decoration than anything else - all those Raleighs with top eyes basically tack-brazed onto the side of the seat tube.

Yes drive side chainstays, often caused by indentations put into the chainstay for extra clearance.

What I'm getting at is its ok being a talented brazer etc but there is a lot more to framebuilding than just brazing.

[incepi]

Yes drive side chainstays, often caused by indentations put into the chainstay for extra clearance.

I never liked that detail. I generally avoid frames that have it.

[steve garro]

there is also back story to it that is not so nice.

That's a load of shit.

- Garro.

[Freddy Salgado]

That's a load of shit.

- Garro.

I am not one to beat on a dead horse... is this something you guys can expand on? Just curious, tbc would have been started with good intentions. I can pm you to get the back story on this if not worth talking about on here.
Pardon my ignorance in advance.

Thanks,
Freddy

[progetto]

Best to let it go as it is no one's business but theirs.

I am not one to beat on a dead horse... is this something you guys can expand on? Just curious, tbc would have been started with good intentions. I can pm you to get the back story on this if not worth talking about on here.
Pardon my ignorance in advance.

Thanks,
Freddy

[devlin]

I apologise for posting it. I was trying to illustrate it's not an easy thing to create. Lots of difference of opinion in the industry. It probably wasn't the best thing to mention it.