What I've Noticed -

[Will Neide]

......... because there aren’t as many opportunities now to work with their hands.

I blame Siri.

[e-RICHIE]

Few that take my class have any immediate plans to become a full time framebuilder. Before class starts I ask every student what their goals are. Years ago it was mostly because they wanted to make something for themselves instead of buying it. Now their answers are divided between making more just for fun and finding out if they have the potential to make some money on a part time basis. For example bike shop guys would like to build frames in the winter when traffic is slow. Almost never does someone say they eventually want to do it full time.

It is interesting to me what happens to former students. Roughly half discover that they either don’t have enough ability or they don’t like the work enough to make it more than a hobby. Some just don’t have it while others can do a very nice job but are too slow to make a profit. The other most common barriers to getting started are not enough capital and no place to work. The reality of bills gets the advantage over enough orders to make it sustainable. Stuff just gets in way.

My classes aren’t a turnkey operation where raw talent comes in and a finished product comes out. They are a foundation on which knowledge from many sources can be built. Learning the basic fabrication skills is only the beginning of what is necessary to turn it into a business.

I teach about 5 three-week (going 6 days a week) classes a year with 3 students in each class with Herbie helping me part time. Having a small class has educational value over one on one. I’ve found that the 2-week classes just aren’t long enough for the average person to catch on to the basics. I still teach them occasionally because that is all the time some have and it is better than trial and error and looking at pictures on the internet for clues.

Looking back through my student roll today, I can see about 5 a year have eventually chosen to sell frames for money on a part time basis. Actually I’m surprised it is that high. Some builders like to be a bit mysterious with their beginnings in there advertising so their connection to me isn’t always shown. There is usually a 2 or 3 year delay between the end of class and hanging out a shingle. About a third of those that start switch again to do something else. Also quite a number of my students took a class from UBI or Yamaguchi before coming to me. I also get a lot of foreign students that have a higher ratio of starting a framebuilding business.

One interesting observation I’ve made over the length of my career is that young Americans have a harder time with hand skills today than in the 70’s because there aren’t as many opportunities now to work with their hands.

Doug - Briefly, my concern (at least in starting this thread) is about the level of work being shown by those who are in the business, not anyone who's making frames for themselves of their brother-in-law (as an example). Part time or not, if you're selling, then it's a different level. I'm vigilant about that folks cashing checks are not doing shoddy work, or making poorly designed bicycles, or worse yet - teaching others how to make frames. There's really nothing I can do about it anyway, but shining a light on mediocrity might give those who need the help a chance to get it.

[pruckelshaus]

IME, it takes 10+ years of doing anything to even begin to approach being an "expert" or a "professional". I'm in year 9 of teaching (middle school, not framebuilding) and I finally feel like I know my ass from a hole in the ground. I've built 3 frames, 2 for me and 1 for my wife. Proud of them all. May or may not build another. With that said, I sure can't see looking back at my 3 frames and saying to myself "OK, time to hang the shingle". 25 frames? Not quite. 50? Maybe. But that's building a lot of frames for friends and family, and there aren't a ton of builders around who would take on an apprentice. I was fortunate to have a builder that allowed me to use his jig and torch and pick his brain for a fairly paltry hourly sum, but I think I was the exception.

Not sure what my point is.

Pete

[ron l edmiston]

--- this thread has my attention:

earning my keep back on our hoosier farms and all the ffa classes didn't make me a farmer.., just a farm boy/hand wearing a ffa jacket..
all the jungle/ranger & combat training didn't me a combat officer.., just the men i kept out of body bags & off memorial walls..
my bs & ms from indiana u coupled with my mba from rollins didn't make a successful sales person, motor-sports/sports marketing upper management for a major lubricant world wide corporation.., just the roi i returned for the stockholders..

so many trials, failures, re-try's, re-fails and time in the manure, fire-fights & walking the mega miles at race tracks/customer warehouses/board-rooms & red-eye flights provided me the experience to continue --- but.., "i did it my way.."

"no short cuts when you can look in a mirror a see a set of blue eyes smiling back.."

ronnie

[edoz]

Americans have a harder time with hand skills today than in the 70’s because there aren’t as many opportunities now to work with their hands.

While I understand the exodus away from skilled trades in this country is a complex issue, I will call 80% bullshit on this. I've been a welder/fabricator for better than 15 years. In that time, I've never worked anywhere that was fully staffed. Every single shop I've worked in was begging for welders, machinists and general shop helpers. Those helper positions were pretty much an apprenticeship for anything that shop offered. Kinda like starting out as a finisher at Seven or something. There may not be as many opportunities to work in bicycle production these days, but there are a multitude of opportunities to learn to weld, machine, grind, braze, paint and use general hand tools while reinforcing safe shop practices in this country if a person wants to learn that stuff. It may not be bicycles, but those skills transfer. After you spend a few months brazing stainless headers full of .009" tubes, lugs and bicycle tubes will be a breeze.

What we have a surplus of in this country, are people with virtually useless college degrees and an aversion to getting dirty.

[Michael Gordon]

One interesting observation I’ve made over the length of my career is that young Americans have a harder time with hand skills today than in the 70’s because there aren’t as many opportunities now to work with their hands.

I blame this on the disappearance of shop class in Jr. High and High School. It's a damn shame! It reminds me of the scene from The Breakfast Club when Anthony Michael Hall's character (Brian Johnson) talks about taking shop because it should have been an easy A.

If I had to guess, I'd bet that a lot of people that get out of trying to make a career in frame building, because they find out that it is actually hard work. I'll bet there are others who are talented builders, but just aren't good marketers.

As I look at the FNL pics each week, I am always amazed at the beautiful bikes and pro quality photography I see coming out of the corner of various builder's shops with a good backdrop, lighting and camera. In my opinion, it takes a whole hell of a lot more than just frame building skill to create a successful bicycle business.

[Cookietruck]

What we have a surplus of in this country, are people with virtually useless college degrees and an aversion to getting dirty.

I don't have much to say on the subject of framebuilders except, I know if I'm getting one made it's gonna be someone that has been doing it for a long time. I trust they can design it and they also know when to tell the customer when something they might be considering isn't gonna work.

Edoz I quoted you because the subject is heading towards people not being able to do shit with their hands anymore, the younger kids atleast, the disappearance of the shop class, I just read the same thing in an article today about a bass luthier and it inspired me to post it here for e-richie and any other that might want to read it.
http://www.aesbass.com/LutherieMag/L...Spring2015.pdf

^ oh yeah there is also the same thing said about running a business/customer service vs. just building...

Jeff P.

[devlin]

Well alright then.

I don't go for people's jugular, but I'll point things out if they are sub-par or unsafe, but I won't pick apart a "look"

- Garro.

You can put me in that camp as well. Of the photos I have posted of my work so far I've only had 'likes' and a virtual high five. I expect and welcome any form of critique. We don't know what we don't know.

[pruckelshaus]

While I understand the exodus away from skilled trades in this country is a complex issue, I will call 80% bullshit on this. I've been a welder/fabricator for better than 15 years. In that time, I've never worked anywhere that was fully staffed. Every single shop I've worked in was begging for welders, machinists and general shop helpers. Those helper positions were pretty much an apprenticeship for anything that shop offered. Kinda like starting out as a finisher at Seven or something. There may not be as many opportunities to work in bicycle production these days, but there are a multitude of opportunities to learn to weld, machine, grind, braze, paint and use general hand tools while reinforcing safe shop practices in this country if a person wants to learn that stuff. It may not be bicycles, but those skills transfer. After you spend a few months brazing stainless headers full of .009" tubes, lugs and bicycle tubes will be a breeze.

What we have a surplus of in this country, are people with virtually useless college degrees and an aversion to getting dirty.

I'm a public school teacher. This is a HUGE problem. High schools across the country are so focused on the metric of "how many kids are accepted to college" and are staffed by guidance counselors that are solely focused on getting kids to go to college (even the ones who really, really don't belong in college, whether at 18 or ever), that they see sending a kid to a trade school as failure. This is absolute bullshit. That there are $25+/hr jobs out there that are unfilled because of a skills shortage is asinine.

In order for the US to regain some level of global respect in the world marketplace, it needs to start innovating and building things, and train a workforce to do just that. Things that take not just engineers, but also welders, carpenters, etc. Part of the solution is for corps to start understanding that non college != unskilled, and that a person with skills but no piece of paper on their wall is just as deserving of a piece of that elusive American dream as the person who did go to college.

Pete

[EricKeller]

we are going to be like the hyper-intelligent race in the hitchhiker's guide that went extinct because they sent all the hairdressers and phone sanitizers off-planet.

[ron l edmiston]

eric.., i can relate --

-- with pride within my heart.., our son (so-in-law) not a great 3 r's in high school..
a skilled trade that turned into a handcrafted.., but many hours learning from his grandfather as well as self-inflicts..
33 years old, partners in a high end paint/body shop buckhead/atlanta ga ( ferrari, porsche, bmw, ----..)
our ashley and kenneth own their cars and home.., he works mega hours and turns work away..
yep.., all the above relative to his time learned/dues paid.., & now taking take $'s from the "sheepskins.."

ronnie with a smile

[trentschler]

This is what I did - I worked as a welder in the aerospace industry for several years when I got out of high school. I spent most of my time TIG welding and silver brazing thin 4130 and stainless. I built aircraft engine mounts, overhauled jet engines, worked on missile shells, cryogenic equipment, etc. When I got interested in building bike frames decades later, I already had a strong foundation in metalwork, I just needed to learn how bike frames were constructed. Getting the design right is still a challenge, but I can definitely stick the tubes together! I only build frames as a hobby.

[Doug Fattic]

I’m following up on the discussion about trade schools. One of the greatest challenges in my frame building class is that it surprisingly takes a lot of memory to do really well. Students just assume that if they hear and see what needs to be done they will just be able to remember how to do it themselves. But they can’t and that messes with their ability to do well. Then it is easy to get frustrated which affects their learning ability even more. And then it is like me being a high school teacher and guidance counselor all over again (which I was for 4 years) explaining how to get better grades. In fact I send out in pre-class information “how to do well in class”. It involves how to take notes, how to reorganize those notes and recognize what they need to ask about again. And how to recognize the important details from the unimportant so their notes aren’t cluttered. This way they have their own personal record (beyond my framebuilding class manual which is well over 100 pages of condensed instruction) for future use. I feel a real responsibility to make sure they get enough to repeat it later and all this takes teaching skill and not just framebuilding knowledge. This is why I am skeptical when someone who has never taught thinks they can just start teaching framebuilding classes in a way that is really effective.

And another observation that may take this subject thread completely off kilter. Those of my students that have done a lot of recreational drugs (especially pot) really have a hard time remembering all they need to remember. I have no experience with even alcohol myself so I have no personal knowledge of its effects. I should also add that most of my students are free-spirit artistic types not used to being confined to societies norms. But after I repeat and repeat and repeat some more and someone still isn’t remembering, I think this is bad/sad.

[crumpton]

it isn't about notes. its about mitering both ends of a top tube(or what ever) 500 times. the muscle and mind will learn from that repetition.

[e-RICHIE]

I’m following up on the discussion about trade schools. One of the greatest challenges in my frame building class is that it surprisingly takes a lot of memory to do really well. Students just assume that if they hear and see what needs to be done they will just be able to remember how to do it themselves. But they can’t and that messes with their ability to do well. Then it is easy to get frustrated which affects their learning ability even more. And then it is like me being a high school teacher and guidance counselor all over again (which I was for 4 years) explaining how to get better grades. In fact I send out in pre-class information “how to do well in class”. It involves how to take notes, how to reorganize those notes and recognize what they need to ask about again. And how to recognize the important details from the unimportant so their notes aren’t cluttered. This way they have their own personal record (beyond my framebuilding class manual which is well over 100 pages of condensed instruction) for future use. I feel a real responsibility to make sure they get enough to repeat it later and all this takes teaching skill and not just framebuilding knowledge. This is why I am skeptical when someone who has never taught thinks they can just start teaching framebuilding classes in a way that is really effective.

And another observation that may take this subject thread completely off kilter. Those of my students that have done a lot of recreational drugs (especially pot) really have a hard time remembering all they need to remember. I have no experience with even alcohol myself so I have no personal knowledge of its effects. I should also add that most of my students are free-spirit artistic types not used to being confined to societies norms. But after I repeat and repeat and repeat some more and someone still isn’t remembering, I think this is bad/sad.

I happen to come with some serious LSD use baggage.

[Doug Fattic]

it isn't about notes. its about mitering both ends of a top tube(or what ever) 500 times. the muscle and mind will learn from that repetition.

Taking notes is a good way to remember what to do in the future (particularly if someone does not have a good memory). One has to start out right. For example when brazing a lug one needs to remember lots of details like torch settings, what flame pattern to follow, where to apply the rod, how fast, how close, what speed and what angle to use, etc. Many students have no idea how to do these things without instruction. And most aren’t likely to remember all that instruction when they try again later. So the advantage goes to the person that took good notes so they can do everything right when they do it again. There is no point in practicing the wrong way. I’m not a big fan of trial and error as an effective teacher when good instruction is available. Students that have learned bad brazing habits have a hard time breaking them so they can improve.

[progetto]

Do it until it becomes second nature and you don't even have to think about it. Then you are ready for prime time.

[Tristan]

I feel that it's a reflection of the lower barriers to enter business in the modern world. Years back you got a good reputation from your excellent work - now you get a reputation from your instagram photos.

We get plenty of wheels in here which are built by people with a fancy truing stand a few hundred instagram followers but the wheels aren't up to scratch. To add to the frustration these are wheels are often ones we lost the sale on because the other guy was cheaper (and in my view with the prices I see around the 'net they're not very good at basic math or accounting because you can't run a sustainable business on those prices. But that's for another discussion)

[bencooper]

I sold the second frame I built. I think it's still out there somewhere, the customer was definitely still alive 10 years ago anyhow. The third frame's owner brings it back for a service very occasionally.

The first frame I never finished, it was a class project.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Maybe I was just incredibly talented from the off ;-)

[waterlaz]

I wouldn't risk selling my first completed frame :D