What I've Noticed -

[Mark Walberg]

I started a project ....

Doug, This is a really cool thing you have done, the project in Ukraine.
Knowing how to make a good bike is a good thing by itself.
Working hard to pass that skill on to people where it is really needed is going a big step beyond.
Clearly, ERichie is trying to do that, too, just in a different way.

[Doug Fattic]

Doug, This is a really cool thing you have done, the project in Ukraine.
Knowing how to make a good bike is a good thing by itself.
Working hard to pass that skill on to people where it is really needed is going a big step beyond.
Clearly, ERichie is trying to do that, too, just in a different way.

Here is the outside of the workshop with some of the bicycles we have made. The picture inside shows me talking (through a translator) to a pastor from the eastern war zone who is explaining that he can only walk or bike on the roads around where he lives and works. Non-military motor vehicles aren't allowed.
IMG_0470.jpgIMG_1908.jpg
I have always felt exceptionally fortunate I had the opportunity to learn from a master who was a good instructor so my beginning frames were decent. This gift came with a kind of obligation to pass that information forward – particularly since I was a teacher already. In addition I began with good framebuilding tools from another master British builder that had recently passed. I still use his pre-war bench vise as a tribute to him. I was blessed that I didn’t have to tumble around in the weeds starting out on my own.

Our Ukraine Bicycle Project is the 3rd leg of my framebuilding teaching podium. 1st, take a good class (there are vast differences in quality). 2nd, get adequate equipment and space to work. And 3rd, get enough repetition so brazing and filing is instinctual and can be done at a reasonable speed.

Classes differ a lot in philosophy and the knowledge and skill of the teacher. I see plenty of variation in students I get that have already taken other classes. There is a lot of information that needs to be given in a short amount of time. It is up to the teacher to make sure their students know what to do when there is nobody around to help them. As class offerings have increased, I see a pattern to pick based on proximity. I would base it on the teacher.

If framebuilding is more than a hobby, it is necessary to get adequate equipment and space to work. This helps with marketing too. One doesn’t need the best but trying to get by with the minimum just slows the process down and adds unnecessary frustration.

Repetition after instruction makes work go easier and faster. However my observation from the many people I got started making frames is that this isn’t as long a process as often advertised. And it varies a lot between people. If someone is making mistakes or struggling after 10 frames they either got bad training or don’t have enough talent. Working fast enough to be profitable is a somewhat separate issue.

[e-RICHIE]

Working fast enough to be profitable is a somewhat separate issue.

And that's where I came in when the thread began. It's all there to be read again. Thanks.

[RIHans]

Frame building, high end cooking, making drinks, making cabinets, building houses, making the best you can make. Do this.
Look back at what you have done, be unsatisfied. Strive for more.

[Dave Thompson]

Frame building, high end cooking, making drinks, making cabinets, building houses, making the best you can make. Do this.
Look back at what you have done, be unsatisfied. Strive for more.

Great words and life philosophy.

[steve garro]

Frame building, high end cooking, making drinks, making cabinets, building houses, making the best you can make. Do this.
Look back at what you have done, be unsatisfied. Strive for more.

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What I've also noticed is that I've got a good # of bikes done since this thread started.

- Garro.

[zank]

What I've also noticed is that I've got a good # of bikes done since this thread started.

- Garro.

#brazerdude

[Dazza]

There is a chap down under called Keith Marshall, Kumo Cycles: Custom Bike Frames - Home,
who is relatively new to frame building.
Early on he got a bagging from long established builder, because he was interested in getting some S-H machinery to assist his learning curve with his I will give it a go with this bike make caper as my chosen path of professional expression vision. He was told by forums and emails his spending a few K's on some basic machine tools was a waste of time, $ and totally misguided. (I disagreed with this, however...........) The lathe and mill has allowed him to make simple tools and add to his details and quality to his work. His metal working skills are growing every week in regards to his path of making and selling bespoke bicycles.
Despite that advice he persisted and to my observations and experiences with him, I will claim that he is foremost rising young independent builder in Australia.
He has the smarts to sift through the "advice" and make his judgments and make his own mistakes. He is honest and has the perseverance at the toil to make his long term path of professional expression with making bicycles . (yeah I like saying that).
Aside of the "Tosh" I am accused of (lathes etc)
I will comment again, so here is more tosh and I do NOT ask for a across the board apologies from others. I make my own apologies!

It is about attitude and having the required aptitude to achieve a level of competency, what ever the level of competency is to be decided as sufficient is another debate.
All the, How many frames I have done and how many repetitions I have done has only a small part of it. I am tired of hearing builders or any trades person, be it a carpenter, bike builder, steam locomotive train driver tell me or tell others that are hot because I have been doing it for 40 years................. and at times it is apparent they stopped learning and striving to improve 35 years ago. We all have met people like that, YES?
I also believe many exaggerate their claims of past and current production .
Because some one brazes 1000 dropouts at a production line does not qualify them as twice as good as some one that has done 500 drop outs.
Many workers can work a life time at a job, and still they can be passed in a matter of months by some one who has skill and concentration and perhaps more inherent talent.
Of course there is no substitute for experience, time at the toil to improve.
But some will move faster along the time line, or go to higher levels and never stop moving onwards. Yeah, it gets tiring. Personally, I could contemplate a new career that involves new directions with metal working involving steam locos, the 37 years of bikes has given me some level of mental fatigue. My most exciting project the last few years has been my Randonneur bikes, "The Voyageur" model. That was fun and I like doing new stuff for my punters in my flavour.
According to my current opinion and own experience, there is no magic number of hours of volume of production in any trade, or art form that can be measured and a line drawn to be crossed. There is no line to cross. The individual makes their own line.
A skilled and motivated worker, crafts person with a strong self motivated desire to better to day what they did yesterday can go past others who are some what of a plodder. (Plodder is a technical term....................)
Some people have talent at their job, hobby, expressions, some do not .
Some times more time is required for some one to get to the same level as some one with more talent.
Persevere, toil and persevere. Be realistic and have goals.
You must have a vision. You need to have a vision of the journey for yourself.
Many new builders ask me lots of questions and with the best of my intentions I always ask the following,
"are you married, do you have children, can you live tight and cheap for 5-10 years, can you work a part time job to support yourself, can you work 60 hour weeks and do with out stuff
till you become established, (established atmco= good cash flow and no debt)

I think the talented ones that can persevere can make a go of it in the most parts of the western world, USA, UK and Australia. Europe?
There are only two ways of doing any thing.
The easy way
or the correct way.
Just like a race, there are only two ways to win.
You do some thing some one is unable to do
or
you do some thing that they are unwilling to do.
The choices are there for the person who has the vision.

Personally, I have no care if others think I have talent or no talent, I have never built any where the number of frames as some others, nor could I ever because of different details and methods, however I am confident that I give value to my punter's hard earned dollars. I still try to make today's work better than yesterdays. I let others judge if my work and flavours is tosh or has some value. But I make a living that pays the bills and do my other interests.

So ends this current pile of tosh.
Cheers from a just back from 5 weeks in the UK and one week in the USA along with a super head cold

[bonjon]

Cheers frame builders collective.

Guilds dont hurt people, people do.

All you seniors giving free time and wotnot, thanks,
Only scraping the surface but already priceless, you've saved me plenty.

Motivators, and motivation for standards are good.
It aint the detail of who and what video, but the gesture of, go check yourself.

[e-RICHIE]

In the last several years, as selfies, home-made Vimeos with Kenny G soundtracks become the norm, and with the niche continuing to have spikes of interest from folks looking for an open window to crawl in through, I have noticed a lot of bad framebuilding being shown. Be they JPEGs, process shot sequences, or blog entries about how the work is done, there appears to be a lot of under-trained and untrained people making frames for others. I'm prompted to pen this text now because I just saw a 6 minute flick making the rounds, and in it is shown material being prepared, and then assembled into a unit. This, from a maker who is the business now and who also "teaches" others who want to do what he does.

Forgetting for a moment that I have strong opinions about certain things related to this profession, I'm asking that those who are new, who are on the left hand side of the developmental timeline, who may be self-taught, or perhaps took a class and leaped straight into taking orders - please exercise some due diligence and do more work, do better work, get a job in production for a spell so you can hone a skill or three, or simply take a breath before you hang out a shingle and cash checks.

Framebuilding seems a bit watered down these days and it's very noticeable. The mediocre (I won't even mention the bad...) work is becoming too ubiquitous.

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

A year and then some later, I think this thread still has merit.
Two days ago I linked an interview in the General Discussion.
It's worthy of this thread as well.

Philippe Dufour Interview: Why He Is Disappointed With Today's Watchmakers | aBlogtoWatch

[EricKeller]

I can imagine watchmaking is a pursuit that takes a lot of effort to get right. Interestingly, I think lutherie is probably better now than it has been in a very long time. Yeah, there are a lot of pretenders, but most of them are not really misrepresenting themselves in any way. Not as easy to get a nice paint job and web site and pass yourself off as an expert luthier. As far as framebuilding goes, I've been observing long enough to see a lot of people go from posting pictures that look actively dangerous to posting pictures that look spectacular. So I'm sanguine about the future of framebuilding, as long as we can still buy tubes.

It's pretty hard to get a start in an area that really needs an apprenticeship program; there just aren't any. You have to find customers to buy your early efforts. It's scary to the highly skilled practitioners, always has been.

[Mark Kelly]

You have to find customers to buy your early efforts. It's scary to the highly skilled practitioners, always has been.

Or adopt industry standards and commit to actual testing.