What I've Noticed -

[nrs5000]

Piercing the corporate veil should not be easy if you run the corporation as a business with its own books and assets (and that includes insurance). It's of course easy to allege but proving it is another thing.

Nate Spencer-Mork

[devlin]

Thanks for all the replies to my cries above. I've started again to approach brokers etc. and ask around some of the guys in the industry in this country. There is one particular company, Cyclecover, who offers manufacturers insurance. See what they come back with.

Next port of call is finding someone to test a frame. May have to do my own tests and document it somehow.

One thing in my research I found is that custom frames are not held to the mandatory pedal bicycle standard in this country but I cannot find where there is a standard for them. It seems to be a real grey area here. Still looking.

[Tristan]

Hopefully people thinking about entering business read threads like this and realize that running a business and selling product is a whole lot more than simply making something.

[e-RICHIE]

Hopefully people thinking about entering business read threads like this and realize that running a business and selling product is a whole lot more than simply making something.

I'd punctuate that by saying making something is not the same as making somethings.

[Eric Siepmann]

Call an insurance agent and talk to them. This is what they do. Since you aren't selling your frames, you might be able to just add an umbrella policy to whatever insurance you carry now - auto, homeowners, etc. Umbrellas are cheap - a couple hundred dollars per year for a million dollars of coverage, is a rule of thumb. But you will need to look at the policy language carefully to make sure there are no exclusions that could be construed to apply.

Edward Carman

First right answer to the question. Each state is entirely different in coverage offered, allowed and how claims are settled in court. These types of questions are best handled by professionals, not some forum on the internet. And if it is important enough to ask here than its important enough to make a phone call and talk to a broker over a cup of free coffee...

I would never gift anything like this to any of my friends unless I was a professional full time builder with years under my belt. Your best friend will take you to the cleaners if he ends up in a wheel chair.

[devlin]

So I was offered a policy yesterday. It's only for $5m so asking about higher coverage and I haven't scene the fine print yet, so haven't committed to it until I have and it's acceptable.

[edoz]

Your best friend will take you to the cleaners if he ends up in a wheel chair.

It might not even be the rider who's injured that takes you to court. Sometimes insurance companies look around to see who they can recoup some of their money from.

[devlin]

So I was offered a policy yesterday. It's only for $5m so asking about higher coverage and I haven't scene the fine print yet, so haven't committed to it until I have and it's acceptable.

Cool. $10m cover for $570 per year and can pay it monthly. Have yet to read the policy in full so haven't pulled the trigger.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Cool. $10m cover for $570 per year and can pay it monthly. Have yet to read the policy in full so haven't pulled the trigger.

10 mill does that cover a broken finger and lawyers expenses these days...serious Q...not kidding

[devlin]

TBH I don't know. The broker seemed to think $10m was enough. I'm still asking questions.

[prolix21]

Like many, I drank the UBI kool-aid and immediately wanted more. I did ok work there and came away with a solid frame and a sense that I wanted to do more building, but I've never wanted to turn it into a business or build for anyone besides myself. If I die with 2 or 3 frames on the wall I'd be happy, and while I 'brand' or name fames, it's for me and not really anyone else. I'll never get anywhere near that point in time where experience and skill would translate into me doing this for others. That's the point I think many think they can fast forward to.

I think there is a bit of a cultural thing that accounts for some of it as well - nobody builds stuff anymore, we all just sit in front of screens all day and maybe we code or design but the tactile and human part of work is pretty much dead. When you lack that that for most of your life and suddenly learn to take some tubes and build a freakin bicycle that you can ride to work a couple weeks later that is an amazing feeling. That experience of making something with your own hands is something many of us have lost and I think these classes, however flawed some of them may be, do a good job of re-connecting us to it.

I think many of the folks who end up here just want more of that feeling, to learn a bit more and make something cool.

[Eric Siepmann]

It might not even be the rider who's injured that takes you to court. Sometimes insurance companies look around to see who they can recoup some of their money from.

Sometimes? Subro is a matter of policy at all carriers. We cross claim just about everyone and their mother until you can prove to the court you should not be standing in the court alongside of us. Coverage attorneys....

[Eric Siepmann]

10 mill does that cover a broken finger and lawyers expenses these days...serious Q...not kidding

$10M limit will most of the time. Last $10M judgement I saw was for bad faith which is another topic entirely.

[Eric Siepmann]

Cool. $10m cover for $570 per year and can pay it monthly. Have yet to read the policy in full so haven't pulled the trigger.

I would read it and all the endorsements. It's surprising what your policy will actually cover....

[todwil]

So I have to ask what was the number for all the seasoned veterans started offering there wares for sale?


Todd Wilson

[e-RICHIE]

So I have to ask what was the number for all the seasoned veterans started offering there wares for sale?


Todd Wilson

I started my business after having at least a couple of hundred builds in my hands. And, I think I started too soon.

[Eric Estlund]

I built about 2000 bikes for another company before hanging my shingle.

[todwil]

Great posturing, I guess I didn't ask it correctly I wasn't asking when you ventured out on your own I was asking the number of frames that YOU made before you starting selling, giving or sold by an employer.

[e-RICHIE]

My reply is the correct one to both your incorrect and corrected question. I was part of an assembly room operation (not a custom framebuilder shop) and was weened on the steps taken to make frames from one end to the other. Then, as my skills evolved, so did my responsibilities as a cog in the wheel. And then, later, I started a business. Of course, like Eric and many others, I gave up a lot to have what I eventually have. That's a trait I rarely see now. Folks want to go straight to becomiing a - FRAMEBUILDER.

[chasea]

If you must put a dollar amount on it- and, really, you must- understand that in many cases you're better off killing them.

Let that sink in.


-L. Chase Anderson