Ketosis and Road Racing

[Nate@Scarab]

san millan also posts a lot of worthwhile stuff

https://twitter.com/doctorinigo

Hehehe, I used to coach with him. Hence a lot of my suppositions re: ketosis. PS: He's a big fan of total junk on the bike, too. Pop-Tarts were my San Milan/Kevin Nicol revelation.

Jeukendrup is a cool resource. Thanks!

Pulled the pin - I could feel the adrenal fatigue beginning to set in (perhaps this can lend insight: http://www.mysportscience.com/#!High...f21d84af920062). Might be worth another shot in the offseason, but for now, I'll avoid it.

[whistler]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here..

I did keto last year for 9 weeks starting the last week of January to lose weight during the winter as I gradually ramped up training for my Pyrenees bike tour in May of last year.

It was awesome. I felt great almost euphoric for a bit. I had a ton of energy and was eating tons and tons of veggies and just generally clean food.

I re-introduced carbs about 2-3 weeks before I went on tour and as I got off the trainer and on to the road as the weather improved.

I believe certain people could be fine all-keto all the time, and that would be good for them (diabetics). I would even argue that it's great for everyone for a little bit as a little reset to your digestion.

As others I'm sure have mentioned though, I don't think carbs are a good 'base' upon which to create your diet. I also shake my head at people using goo/gels on training rides.

Good fat, nuts, avocados, good grass fed butter, beef, dairy, pastured eggs, leafy greens, is the foundation imho and carbs layered as needed on top of that.

But when you're riding back to back to back 70+ mile days in elevation on a loaded bike tour you can't possibly eat enough calories to make up for the amount you're burning. We were eating all the time, and despite never feeling hungry were still losing weight.

Where elongated above-normal efforts are happening carbs have an essential role to play in nutrition. It's a corner stone of civilization after all.

Also, to de-qualify I don't race and bread is delicious.

[DOOFUS]

ketogenic diets only make sense if you are rarely -- if ever -- go over the first lactate turnpoint (the aerobic threshold/zone 2/2mmol whatever you want to call it).

once you start burning sugar, you need sugar. there's over 30 years of physiology to back that up....

gels on a training ride? sure -- following a ~100 calorie zone 5/6 effort, makes perfect sense. Saturday was 100 miles, 5 /12 hours, with 4 efforts of zone 5 that burned off ~ 100 calories each. 4 gels, 2 bananas.

even with that CHO replacement, that ride was long and hard enough to deplete glycogen stores. I ate ~ 2500 cal, about 70% of it CHO, between finishing the ride and bed. the next day, 4 PRs on 3-4 minute zone 5 hills -- glycogen was replaced, with maybe a little bit of supercompensation.

road racing and training for road racing = high CHO. if you're not getting in 12+ hours a week on the bike with intensity, and are overeating the carbs, ok, now you'll have problems. but a high CHO diet best meets the energy demands of endurance athletes in training and competition.

Carbohydrate intake during exercise and performance. - PubMed - NCBI

Carbohydrate and exercise performance: the role of multiple transportable carbohydrates. - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...65cd000000.pdf

SSE #106 Carbohydrate Supplementation During Exercise: Does It Help? How Much is Too Much?

http://www.olympiatoppen.no/fagomraa...dia39082.media

[Nate@Scarab]

ketogenic diets only make sense if you are rarely -- if ever -- go over the first lactate turnpoint (the aerobic threshold/zone 2/2mmol whatever you want to call it).

Aaand we're back to 1000kj/hr...bless you, CHO.

[suhacycles]

Man, you guys suffer enough on the bike, why suffer at the dining table!? How about this for an idea, find out what the top pro Belgian riders are eating and do that diet for 3 months and see what happens. Then, switch over to the Spanish diet. Record the differences in power outputs, body weight, HgbA1c, VO2 max, the works... that sounds like more fun! =)

[Sizzler]

As neural activity relies on glucose, and something like 10% of the body's total energy is used in neurotransmission, does a keto diet negatively impact brain function?

[jscottyk]

As neural activity relies on glucose, and something like 10% of the body's total energy is used in neurotransmission, does a keto diet negatively impact brain function?

The short answer is ketones. It's get's a bit technical but Dr. Attia has a good description of the biochemistry here: Part 1 and Part 2

[Sizzler]

The short answer is ketones. It's get's a bit technical but Dr. Attia has a good description of the biochemistry here: Part 1 and Part 2

Thanks, that perfectly answered my question!

[AJPM44]

Have you checked out Tim Noakes?

[Brad K.]

According to anecdotal evidence from the interwebs, high fat/moderate-to-low protein/low-to-no carb diets seem to work well for sedentary people and casual exercisers looking to lose fat.

There also seems to be a growing number of examples of elite endurance athletes on ketogenic diets.

Zach Bitter, who holds the world record for distance ran in 12 hours (over 100 miles), seems to eat a ketogenic diet. What is Low Carb? - Zach Bitter - Blog

More to the point of this forum, Sami Inkinen, an amateur long course triathlete at the very pointy end of the sport (multi-time overall age group winner at the Wildflower 70.3, etc) is apparently now on such a diet, experiencing good results. INCURABLE DATA GEEK • Becoming a Bonk Proof Triathlete: Fat Chance!?

Maybe these guys are deluded? Or maybe they've personalized a diet that works for them and the events they like to compete in?

As others have pointed out, I think that the supposed benefits of a ketogenic diet---shifting your energy substrate at subthreshold efforts from carbohydrate (a finite resource) to fat (an effectively infinite resource in the human body---are obviously relevant to endurance athletes that race at subthreshold effort: ultra distance foot races, iron distance tris, etc.

The reason: everyone has finite stores of energy, and finite hourly limits on energy absorption from food. From an outsiders perspective, it seems like the traditional logic in ultradistance racing was to push the limits on in-race fueling. Race-pace was fast enough to deplete internal stores, and the equation you had to solve had to do with figuring out how to replenish these stores over the course of a race while not overloading your digestive system. It seems like the compelling thing about ketogenic diets for ultra-distance athletes is that the physiological effects of such a diet allow them to tweek the traditional "deplete-replenish-repeat" logic. Theoretically, if you can keep the same race-pace while utilizing fuel from a much larger gas tank, then this would seem to help people who struggle with the traditional deplete-replenish approach to racing.

It seems to work for some people. It also seems like the elite athletes who subscribe to high fat low carb diets as a lifestyle are also willing to use carbohydrates to fuel key training sessions and races.

As is usually the case, the people on the sidelines who like to offer their opinions about everything seem to view the issue as an either/or thing: Either a high carbohydrate diet is the only valid way to eat, or a high fat low carb diet is the only valid way to eat. Decide which view you like ahead of time, and then google for studies you've never read and anecdotes from people you've never met that will support your predetermined position.

In reality, every choice involves trade-offs. A high carbohydrate diet has obvious and time-tested benefits, but it also has drawbacks. A "ketogenic" diet apparently has obvious and proven benefits for some people, but also has obvious drawbacks. Neither is a one-sized-fits-all solution. Why would anyone with life-experience think that such solutions exist anyways? Humans are physiologically-flexible organisms, and there is always more than one way to skin a cat. People who are attracted to the "One True Way" approach seem, to me at least, to be missing the point.

The truth, speaking as someone who has worked in labs, published scientific papers, and is currenty training as a physician: people tend to impose complexity on things that are best viewed as simple, and impose simplicity on things that are best viewed as complex.

Eat mostly fruits and vegetables. Eat some meat, and some whole grains, but not too much of either. Avoid processed grains for the most part, but if you have the oppurtunity to eat a delish hunk of buttered bread, take it, because YOLO. Don't eat dairy if you're lactose intolerant. Use simple sugars for tough workouts, but otherwise avoid them like poison. Eat birthday cake at birthday parties, because don't be that guy. Otherwise, don't eat desserts and don't snack between meals. Sleep enough. Train consistently.

This will probably work for 99 out of 100 amateur athletes looking to maximize health and performance. The Exercise-and-Diet-Advice-Industrial Complex exists solely because we don't have the foresight or discipline to follow the above simple plan.

[jscottyk]

Eat mostly fruits and vegetables. Eat some meat, and some whole grains, but not too much of either. Avoid processed grains for the most part, but if you have the oppurtunity to eat a delish hunk of buttered bread, take it, because YOLO. Don't eat dairy if you're lactose intolerant. Use simple sugars for tough workouts, but otherwise avoid them like poison. Eat birthday cake at birthday parties, because don't be that guy. Otherwise, don't eat desserts and don't snack between meals. Sleep enough. Train consistently.

There ya have it.

[DOOFUS]

relevant

Toolbox: Metabolic Fatigue and Carbohydrates - PezCycling News

[wasfast]

diet applied on a bell curve is parallel to doctor's prescription on a curve; will work for many, not for everyone.

I'm a carb addict through and through. That has caused me all sorts of issues that were/are made dramatically better on low carb eating. I feel much better, can do aerobic rides of 4 hours on just water. I lost nearly 20lbs over 3-4 months after many years of calorie watching. I think much of that is just related to how my body is wired. Certainly all of us are not wired the same.

I was absolutely miserable for the first couple weeks and my riding was equally sucky for 4 weeks. I was determined to see how it went and the corner was turned finally but there were times I really wondered. My racing is just short TT's (less than an hour) so comparing that with stage racing and the distances that Heisenberg does are very different animals.

As far at low carb for high intensity over long distances, I'd think it even more individual specific. There are certainly examples of folks that get on well but it's definitely not everyone. Experimentation is about the only way really.

My takeaway on Ketosis and low carb eating after 15 months (for myself) is that eliminating sugar is the single best thing I could do. Eliminating corn, white flour, most wheat products (bread, pasta etc) agrees with my body. With sugar especially, I'm craving food constantly and can't get enough hence I just eat and eat. No wonder weight gain is an issue. Past those things, it's primarily the same old message, lots of green veggies, eliminating processed food and perservatives, eating food that grows, buying the best quality food possible VS manufactured food, etc.

[DOOFUS]

timing of what you eat also matters -- sugar in the bike following glycolytic efforts, or as part of what you eat within the first hour off the bike, sure. your insulin response is controlled by the exercise. sugar at breakfast, as part of snacks, or (ok, yes I will eat an occasional) dessert, not so much.

also, if you're not going over the first lactate turnpoint, you really don't need food on a 3 or 4 hour ride. if you have a decent base and training background, you should be able to do 2000-2500kj of low intensity work just on stored glycogen and body fat.

[kentinmania]

Any update at 5 weeks Heisenberg? Cheers.

[Carbon_Cowboy]

This link goes over the data on ketogenic diets and cycling performance pretty well

[nahtnoj]

I don't understand most of what is being said in this thread, but I read it and now I am hungry.

[defspace]

I don't understand most of what is being said in this thread, but I read it and now I am hungry.

I used to read diet/training books before bed. Reading about eating made me hungry.

Now I read fiction and I'm not hungry before bed.