Horizontal Mills

[Proparc]

I have been looking at pictures of people's tooling here since the beginning, and one thing I noticed is that, a lot of guys seem to have found these great small horizontal mills. If you search Ebay you will notice that, a lot of the horizontal mills are large enough to crack the concrete in your garage. Some even look like they would have been used to repair Optimus Prime after he had taken battle damage-scary. Were do these neat small horizontal mills come from?

I am convinced that horizontal mitering is THEE way go for ease of setup and accuracy.

[bencooper]

At least in the UK, eBay isn't the best place for them - second-hand machine tool dealers have them quite often.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I have been looking at pictures of people's tooling here since the beginning, and one thing I noticed is that, a lot of guys seem to have found these great small horizontal mills. If you search Ebay you will notice that, a lot of the horizontal mills are large enough to crack the concrete in your garage. Some even look like they would have been used to repair Optimus Prime after he had taken battle damage-scary. Were do these neat small horizontal mills come from?

I am convinced that horizontal mitering is THEE way go for ease of setup and accuracy.

really?

[John Winston]

I put auto downfeed high on the list, which puts most horizontal mills out of the equation. However, as far as fork coping....a horizontal seems to be "thee" way. FYI, my local CL usually has small lightweight horizontal mills, so might yours.

[DeeDub76]

Try searching online through various machine surplus dealers. You will find what you want. You will also probably pay just as much in shipping/handling as you will for the mill itself.

However, a good eye and sharp file can be just as accurate if not faster.

[MagicCycles]

I love my small Benchmaster Horizontal Mill. Here are some snaps of it. I got very lucky and found a local guy who works for Felt bicycles that had it. He upgraded to a bigger mill.

IMG_2694.jpgIMG_2695.jpgIMG_2696.jpg

[EnginCycles]

Try searching online through various machine surplus dealers. You will find what you want. You will also probably pay just as much in shipping/handling as you will for the mill itself.

However, a good eye and sharp file can be just as accurate if not faster.

I call bullshit on this. Anytime you want to have a visit we will put this to the test. Pick an angle and we will give it a whirl. No way you will be faster or more accurate than my machine. I will give you the machine if you are faster. Now you will need to move the 5000 lb chunk of iron but seriously this has been said many times before but it is just not true. With a dedicated machine that has been trammed in with a quality indicator and someone that knows what they are doing there is no way you are faster or more accurate.

The reason you see dedicated horizontal mills is because you remove one more part of the equation. The spindle is fixed to the table at perpendicular (except for universal machines). This allows you to worry less about one more dimension. Also having the fixture in the horizontal position makes it easier to make the fixture rotate on center (this allows for a scale to set the length). The ultimate machine from a standpoint of having power feed, rapid, 40 taper for rigidity and a small footprint there are a few good options. The K&T 2CHL or HL and the Cincinnati 2ML are very high on the list. If you want the most bang for your buck of space find a Deckel FP1 or FP2. Then you have horizontal and vertical. Power feed is very handy but hardly the reason it is accurate or fast. In fact running a machine manually is better if you are not experienced. You will feel the tube about to snag and tear. These machines will always win the battle against a tube so if power feed is on it will trash everything in its way.

[VertigoCycles]

I think we need a new subforum called "Tough Love" where some of this shit it called into light.

I agree with what Drew wrote above. In no world is mitering by hand faster AND more accurate when compared to a good fixture on a machine.

I am convinced that horizontal mitering is THEE way go for ease of setup and accuracy.

These things are more dependent on your mitering fixture than the type of mill you have. Horizontals can be fantastic with the right tooling but can be limiting for other uses. Verticals can be limiting with some mitering fixtures but tend to be more versatile for other uses.

IF you can find a Deckel FP2 AND you can afford it, I think it's one of the best small machines out there. It has power feeds on all three axes, is fantastically rigid for its size and because of the unique table setup. The work envelope is smaller than that of a Bridgeport style machine but given the choice between the two I'd choose the Deckel every time.

[werksmini]

Check out your local auction houses and wait for a bit. Sadly there are a huge range of machine shops closing doors fairly regularly (at least here in MA).

People like this Joseph Finn Co., Inc. - Auctioneers and Appraisers

[DeeDub76]

Ok guys...I was too literal when I stated that you could be faster and more accurate than a dedicated mill. What I was trying to convey to the OP is getting good with a file and learning the by hand method one can become efficient and relatively quick at mitering joints.

My previous post was incorrect in regards to a human being faster and more accurate than a machine. My apologies.

[Mike Mcdermid]

fastest most accurate is a Laser

followed closely second by a 4 4 axis cnc and carbide

followed only by the abrasive tube notcher

discussion end

[e-RICHIE]

I have been looking at pictures of people's tooling here since the beginning, and one thing I noticed is that, a lot of guys seem to have found these great small horizontal mills. If you search Ebay you will notice that, a lot of the horizontal mills are large enough to crack the concrete in your garage. Some even look like they would have been used to repair Optimus Prime after he had taken battle damage-scary. Were do these neat small horizontal mills come from?

I am convinced that horizontal mitering is THEE way go for ease of setup and accuracy.

I learned to miter with a 12" and a 10" half-round bastard file, and after about 25 years of this, I bought some used lathes and a shitload of cutters. I tossed it all after another 5 years or so and returned to files.

I would recommend mastering the task by hand, and then only mechanize if you 1) have arthritis or, 2) are a tool junkie or, 3) are making so many repeat cuts that speed and your peace of mind are at issue. Be the tool atmo.

[Proparc]

I use to do it by hand.

[Proparc]

fastest most accurate is a Laser

followed closely second by a 4 4 axis cnc and carbide

followed only by the abrasive tube notcher

discussion end

Laser is the fastest,I've seen it, (Mazak, Los Angeles). CNC is second fastest. Abrasive tube notcher similar to the one used by Rodriguez Cycles in Seattle WA is third,(they designed it in-house).

Can't do the laser LOL.

[VertigoCycles]

Proparc,

This being in the frame forum, and as per forum rules, can we get a name? If you share a location too we might be able to make some suggestions as to where you can look.

The way the market is, the smaller machines tend to grab more coin specifically because they can be put into a small shop or hobbyist garage. You'll also have better luck on the east coast or in the mid-west, or in southern CA if you're in the west. Keeping an eye open for industrial auctions is a good idea no matter where you are.

[EricKeller]

I've never been that great at mitering by hand, but the thing I found impossible was a crown tube for a segmented fork. I'm pretty sure it's easier to cut one than to do a 3d model of one.

[David Tollefson]

I've never been that great at mitering by hand, but the thing I found impossible was a crown tube for a segmented fork. I'm pretty sure it's easier to cut one than to do a 3d model of one.

If the offset is put all at the "crown", then it's easy -- the miters aren't clocked relative to each other.

[bencooper]

The tube notcher method is pretty quick and very accurate too - I do all tube mitres on a notcher with a power drill (documented elsewhere) and each cut takes about 30 seconds. Setting up is always the slow bit.

I recently got a horizontal mill, a lovely 70-year-old Denbigh, but I don't anticipate using it for tube mitring.

[e-RICHIE]

Proparc - how many frames have you made, and how long have you been at the bench? What are your goals for trading manual tasks for automated tasks? And yeah, as others have mentioned, please add a first and last name to all posts on FrameForum as per the user agreement. Thanks.

[Proparc]

Proparc - how many frames have you made, and how long have you been at the bench? What are your goals for trading manual tasks for automated tasks? And yeah, as others have mentioned, please add a first and last name to all posts on FrameForum as per the user agreement. Thanks.

Let me correct the rules thing, so sorry. Milton Graham. But, I think you mean I have to put my name on the original post. I will see if I can go back and edit it. The issue is not numbers. The issue is tig welding. I have just learned first hand, the price you pay for less than perfect miters, when you are trying to get your tig mojo together. Trust me,trust me, you pay dear!!
Can't withstand that much pain again LOL. Got to look into equipment and procedures that allow me to focus on the tig welding, and NOT the mitering.