Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical

[Michael Gordon]

Thank you Andy & Rody for your kind words.

Andy - Prior to cutting the tubes, I roll them with a dial indicator to find the high spots and put the bow in plane with the frame's centerline.

Day 8 - Next step... Dry fitting everything up prior to brazing.

Frame Alignment 2.jpg

The top tube on this frame will have a slight slope to it. The small size and slope are requiring some deviation from the angles cast into the lugs. A little work with my files, some emery cloth on the end of my drill, Dremel tool, pliers, hammer, and a little persuasion... and I have them right where I want them.

I am on the lookout for a proper surface plate, hoping to find one at auction in my price range. Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.

I'm away on vacation with the family this week, but I am hoping to get the front triangle brazed up when I return in a week. That will also be about the time I can crack open the first bottle from a new batch of hefeweizen, and get the next batch of our oaked vanilla bourbon stout bottled up... There is a lot that goes into this whole frame building process!

[progetto]

love the colour coding.

[Michael Gordon]

Forgive me V-Salon community, for I have sinned. It has been too long since my last post, but the current thread dominating the forum has inspired me to add pics of my latest build to the thread I had started.

I'm further along than the pictures show, but I am trying to keep them coming in order of the days works. Keep in mind, I just do a little each day...

Here is day 9, part 1, brazing of the main triangle.

Triangle 1.jpg
Triangle 2.jpg
Triangle 3.jpg
Triangle 4.jpg
Triangle 5.jpg
Triangle 6.jpg
Triangle 7.jpg
Triangle 8.jpg
Triangle 9.jpg
Triangle 10.jpg

[Michael Gordon]

Doh!

I had some comments next to each of the pictures in my previous post, but I timed out as I was making edits. Here they are...

I am building without a formal jig, so my $1 jig consists of a piece of MDF with grooves cut in the edges and cut at the angle I want to hold the tubes. The triangle is fluxed and assembled, then checked on my chunk of kitchen granite and my parallel pieces of angle iron held in the vice. The assembly is tacked, then checked again before the lugs get fully brazed.

Next, time to soak off the flux and clean up the lugs with some emery cloth and scotch brite.

[Michael Gordon]

Still Day 9. Cleaning up the lugs.

ROG_6389.jpg

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[Mtblucas]

I am on the lookout for a proper surface plate, hoping to find one at auction in my price range. Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.

Thanks for the great thread! You do very nice work.

How is your granite not a proper surface plate? I guess I'm confused with the differences between alignment tables and surface plates. They all allow you to measure frame alignment right? What are the differences? Is the difference between your granite slab and a proper surface plate the thickness? If so, is the added thickness necessary to support a BB post? I only ask because I am looking around to get an old granite counter top as well and thought that was all I needed. Thanks!




Matt Lucas

[devlin]

I guess the extra benefit is in knowing the surface table should be pretty accurate where as the granite bench top may not be as accurate. I am willing to be it is close enough for frame building though and it would be prudent to check and correct any surface you used.

[Mike Mcdermid]

A granite slab is cut and ground in a very similar way to a granite surface plate

However a surface plate is calibrated within certain points this can be as high as 40 microns between highs and lows on some larger plates, on the back of a good plate you usually find 3 points upon which the plate was mounted when it was ground in these are used to mount the plate on its kinematic mount, 3points define a plane so if you are doing inspection work of critically dimensioned parts its a good idea hence sticking It 4 points can introduce twist and a flat bench it can do the same

I think I mentioned before precision and accuracy are two different things you could have a granite plate that is miles out and then put your clock ,comparitor whatever on it claiming x or y figure in al honesty it can be a fair bit out depending on your method

[waterlaz]

I think that for the purpose of framebuilding you can check if your plate is good enough by looking at the distortion of the reflection image the plate gives you. If you don't see any visible distortion standing a couple of meters away from the plate, the plate should be ok.
Or you could just put a straight edge and try to fit shims made from beer cans between the straight edge and the plate.

[Michael Gordon]

The surface plate is something I meant to comment on.

I have found that clamping the frame to a piece of granite kitchen counter top with C-Clamp is not very accurate. After brazing, I camped my frame to the granite, and found that it was suggesting that my frame was severely off in one direction. I flipped it over, clamped it down, and found that it was not off in the opposite direction. This had me baffled for quite a while, until I took the main triangle to a local shop with a proper surface plate. It was in much better alignment than my home grown method was telling me, but still need about a mm of persuasion. I'd imagine that the error in my method came from both the inaccuracy of the granite itself, and the clamping method. When I put a level with a good aluminum edge against the granite and a light on the other side, I can see the waviness in the granite. It is small, but it is there. I'm sure there is also a level of inaccuracy in the flatness of the aluminum edge of my level. I guess that it why it is best to buy a properly ground plate.

My next investment is going to be a proper surface plate. I have found I can buy a 24"x36" granite plate locally for $220 brand new. I'd prefer something just a little bit larger made out of steel, which would be a little lighter and easier to get into the basement than the next size granite plate at 36"x48" (I think weighing in around 800 lbs). I haven't found the right piece yet. During a road trip through Michigan, I stopped in to visit Doug Fattic at his shop. One of his bits of advice was that a surface plate is one of the best tools one should invest in, long before purchasing a jig.

Once I get a plate, I'll have to have a post made. I know there are a lot of good threads on the forum on surface plates that I will have to re-read before I make the investment.

[devlin]

Yes. The surface plate is invaluable. I bought mine off Keith at Kumo for $400. It took me another $600 to get it shipped. Anything else I found was in the multiple of thousands but this is Australia where even a shitty run down lathe people are asking $500-600. My table is 1800x770 (70"x30") and weighs about 700kg (1500lb). I need a 1.5t engine hoist to move it and even then it's an absolute mission.

I also don't clamp my frame down on the whipping post. I do it Dazza style and just rest it with perfect height stand offs for the tubes etc.

Back to your frame building Michael. Looking really good so far and I love the resourceful problem solving. I've had to do some of that myself for my frames.

[Eric Siepmann]

The surface plate is something I meant to comment on.

I have found that clamping the frame to a piece of granite kitchen counter top with C-Clamp is not very accurate. After brazing, I camped my frame to the granite, and found that it was suggesting that my frame was severely off in one direction. I flipped it over, clamped it down, and found that it was not off in the opposite direction. This had me baffled for quite a while, until I took the main triangle to a local shop with a proper surface plate. It was in much better alignment than my home grown method was telling me, but still need about a mm of persuasion. I'd imagine that the error in my method came from both the inaccuracy of the granite itself, and the clamping method. When I put a level with a good aluminum edge against the granite and a light on the other side, I can see the waviness in the granite. It is small, but it is there. I'm sure there is also a level of inaccuracy in the flatness of the aluminum edge of my level. I guess that it why it is best to buy a properly ground plate.

My next investment is going to be a proper surface plate. I have found I can buy a 24"x36" granite plate locally for $220 brand new. I'd prefer something just a little bit larger made out of steel, which would be a little lighter and easier to get into the basement than the next size granite plate at 36"x48" (I think weighing in around 800 lbs). I haven't found the right piece yet. During a road trip through Michigan, I stopped in to visit Doug Fattic at his shop. One of his bits of advice was that a surface plate is one of the best tools one should invest in, long before purchasing a jig.

Once I get a plate, I'll have to have a post made. I know there are a lot of good threads on the forum on surface plates that I will have to re-read before I make the investment.

There are plenty of ways to get a surface plate without buying a huge slab of steel or granite. Build Pro sells their table tops in sections. One will suffice to start and it can ship to you and is light enough to move without rigging. There are several places in the city that Blanchard grind. Bring it there, grind it. You'll end up with something similar but better than a Bringhelli. Alex Meade has a great BB Post. Repeat a few times with other table top sections if you wish and you can have a huge "surface table" that can also accept professional welding fixtures, leveling feet, and many other accessories. End of the day if you hobby out of frames you will still have a top of the line welding table that can move with you and fixture to accommodate new horizons.

If you buy a granite or steel table, I'd have it calibrated. The cheap granite tables become expensive when you add shipping, rigging, and calibration. I'd also be concerned with the floor. Many basements were not poured with very thick floors and your stairs down might be an issue to consider as well.

[Mark Kelly]

Frame building doesn't require upscale metrology.

You can go to your local supplier of granite bench tops and ask to see the cutoffs. Assess how flat the individual pieces are by laying an engineer's straight edge along them in several directions. Choose the one with the best overall flatness, voila a "surface plate" for a couple of hundred bucks. When you get it home, mount it on a frame with jack screws and repeat the process, using the jackscrews to get it flat. Yes, there will probably be 0.1 or 0.2 mm deviation across the surface: so what?

My setup didn't even cost that much: I have a couple of laser line generators which cost about $50 each. Attach them to the tubes (or the jig), point them at the opposite wall, when the lines are parallel so are the tubes (or jig sections).

[devlin]

I was going down the granite slab route and even had a frame with jack screw system modeled up with nine points (because I'm anal about it) but Keith's table came up and I jumped at it thinking a couple hundred for the shipping. Kind of wished I went for the granite in some respects but damn it's great to use.

[Michael Gordon]

Thank you all for the surface plate suggestions. I agree that frame building does not require NASA level precision, but I am finding myself frustrated with the chunk of granite I have. it could be my clamping method, my chunk of granite, or more likely a combination of both.

I am fortunate that I can pick up a grade B surface plate for $220, which would probably not be that much more than a cutoff. If I had to also ship it, that would be an entirely different story.

I'm also a little OCD about certain things, which is another reason I want to upgrade. Easier to spend a couple dollars than rewire myself.

As for the progress on the frame... the chain stays are in, the seat stays are capped and ready to get brazed on. I'll get back to posting more pics soon.

[devlin]

..........Easier to spend a couple dollars than rewire myself...........

I'll get back to posting more pics soon.

I've tried the rewire and it always ends up disappointing me.

Enough babble from us.......

[MrkiMedo]

Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.

it must be the lighting, or more probably me, but the thing on the photo does not look to me as if made of granite. Anyway, maybe you can try to insert machined steel plate with parallel faces let's say 300x300x15mm between table and BB and then clamp it. Just make4 sure that you always orient it the same way, and put it on the same place on the table.

[Michael Gordon]

Not sure when I did this one, but it was a good little piece to do between other steps... probably while I was waiting for the rest of the frame to cool.

I'm in the camp that a lugged steel frame should have a steel fork made to match. It is an aesthetic thing for me. I have steel bikes with steel forks, carbon bikes with carbon forks, but I've never ridden a steel bike with a steel fork. This frame is being made with the same head tube angle to an existing frame that has a carbon fork. Eventually, the forks will be swapped for a controlled comparison, swapping only one variable... the fork.

ROG_6387.jpg

[Michael Gordon]

Let's call this day 10...

Sorry I forgot to snap pics of the dropouts being brazed into place, but here is the step by step on what I did.

1. I gave the inside of the tubes and exterior mating surfaces of the dropouts a quick cleaning with some emery, followed by a wipe down with some acetone.

2. Taking a queue from e-Ritchie, I used a tiny round needle file to create a little hole in each side of the stay to feed my filler rod into.

3. I fluxed them all up, and put the dropouts into the stays and the stays into the bottom bracket, then topped it all off with the dummy axle and my rear end jig to make sure everything was held square as I brazed. They stays were not brazed into the bottom bracket at this point. The ends were cleaned up before I then cut the stays to length and then put the whole thing back together again to later braze the stays in place.

OK, so with the dropouts brazed on and cleaned up, now to braze the stays in place...

The rear dropout in the dummy axle.
dropout 1.jpg

You may notice some glazed over flux in this pic. First I did a quick tack of the stays into the bottom bracket shell. Next I took the whole assembly apart and re-checked everything. Checked with the frame park frame gauge, the dropout alignment gauges, put a wheel in the rear end, checked the clearance between the stays, dropped a plumb line from the top of the rim, then checked it all again...
all fluxed up 2.jpg

...and finally put the rear end jig back into place for brazing.
rear end jig 3.jpg

All brazed up!
post braze 4.jpg

[devlin]

Nice. Very tidy work.