Planing

[jclay]

John,
Fact: Minnesota Fats will whip your @ss using a broomstick. A broomstick is no fun to play Billiards with. Jan's approach is to comfort over distance, long distance and for that application there is no question about it. Bikes that flex and reduce rider stress make you stay on the bike longer. Few of us doubt that and heck, I'm for one am very keen to see if you or anyone can resolve empirical data which measures frame flex on riders performance. Seeing that proved will help, not prove, to understand why we "feel" the way we do about bikes of differing build characteristics.

Is that what we are talking about? 'Cause if we are just talking about terms I'm out.

I think the LD thing is part of it but Jan has some interesting data from hill intervals too. I'm not yet willing to write it off.

[Michael Gordon]

I don't think the idea of the frame storing and releasing strain energy is any less plausible in principle than the idea of the Achilles' tendon storing strain energy. That's not the same as saying that I think it happenss, just that your reductio ad absurdam is insufficiently absurd.

Now all we need to do is teach a kangaroo to ride a bike.

Kangaroos on bikes... to me, that doesn't seem much different than a person on a softride beam. Those things were bouncy!

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[thollandpe]

This whole idea reached a pinnacle of ridiculousness for me when Mr. Heine recently posited that a flexible wheel stores energy which is somehow returned into the system as useful work. It's just not plausible.

I don't think I'm with you on this. Back in the days when I rode Spinergy Rev-x's, I noticed this wheel had more torsional rigidity than my spoked wheels.

When climbing the steeps on a dirt road, it was noticeably easier to break it loose (even though it had tubulars!) so you had to be more mindful with the power.

Todd Holland

[e-RICHIE]

I don't think I'm with you on this. Back in the days when I rode Spinergy Rev-x's, I noticed this wheel had more torsional rigidity than my spoked wheels.

When climbing the steeps on a dirt road, it was noticeably easier to break it loose (even though it had tubulars!) so you had to be more mindful with the power.

Todd Holland

How can the conversation about energy storage in a frame stand apart from what happens when wheels and other drive train components are attached atmo? How can a human being isolate the sensations and say the material allows X to happen when so many ingredients make up the whole?

[Dallas Tex]

FWIW,

I own the domains: BikePlaning.com, PlaningBike.com, ExtremeBikePlaning.com....... as well as trademark 'OBPT' (Optimum Bike Planing Technology). All of these are availble for immediate sale.

This is a fun thread. Discussing tiny theoretical minutia is part of what many bike folks enjoy.

[e-RICHIE]

This is a fun thread. Discussing tiny theoretical minutia is part of what many bike folks enjoy.

Let's not even discuss what we think we know about 17th Century varnishes atmo...

[dgaddis]

I don't think the idea of the frame storing and releasing strain energy is any less plausible in principle than the idea of the Achilles' tendon storing strain energy. That's not the same as saying that I think it happenss, just that your reductio ad absurdam is insufficiently absurd.

Now all we need to do is teach a kangaroo to ride a bike.

Storing and releasing energy no doubt. But when it releases the energy how does that help move the bicycle? With a bicycle flexing laterally at the BB, and then returning, how can that propel the bicycle forward?

The whole smoothing power transmission thing I kinda get, but 'getting energy back' I'm not buying.

[jclay]

How can the conversation about energy storage in a frame stand apart from what happens when wheels and other drive train components are attached atmo? How can a human being isolate the sensations and say the material allows X to happen when so many ingredients make up the whole?

Re the wheels: Ride the same bike over the same course with the only diff being the wheels; one being very stiff, the other being noodley. Use the same seasoned, fit riders, do it a bunch of times, use statistics to vet the results. Qualitative, room for error or misinterpretation? Certainly, but that approach often points one in the general direction of reality. Same approach for the frame analysis.

How can the frame conversation stand apart? Not certain exactly what the question is but to find out if one aspect of a system is doing "X", then set all other aspects to be the same, see if differences are observed. And do it with binary comparisons, don't throw six frames with all kinds of tubing differences to a bunch of riders and expect clarity to be the result.

[Dallas Tex]

Storing and releasing energy no doubt. But when it releases the energy how does that help move the bicycle? With a bicycle flexing laterally at the BB, and then returning, how can that propel the bicycle forward?

The whole smoothing power transmission thing I kinda get, but 'getting energy back' I'm not buying.

I don't buy it, but I think I can answer what you are asking. When your left foot pedals downward when you stand to climb or sprint, your body resists the torque by applying pressure to the right side of the bike to keep the bike upright. And vice versa for the right foot. The energy release, when the flexed frame returns to shape 'assists' the process by offsetting the opposite foots efforts.

[e-RICHIE]

Re the wheels: Ride the same bike over the same course with the only diff being the wheels; one being very stiff, the other being noodley. Use the same seasoned, fit riders, do it a bunch of times, use statistics to vet the results. Qualitative, room for error or misinterpretation? Certainly, but that approach often points one in the general direction of reality. Same approach for the frame analysis.

I think the only reality it points to is that of the writer. And, if you don't share his ethos to begin with, it's less believable still. Further to this, if the experiment is let's do this a bunch of times and chart the results, that makes no sense to me. After the second time, and certainly before the fifth or eighth attempt, you're no longer the same rider; fatigue and all that stuff will produce your own personal energy deficit. How valid is a conclusion when you're not the man in the afternoon that you were right after breakfast? Or, are there corrections for this variable too?

How can the frame conversation stand apart? Not certain exactly what the question is but to find out if one aspect of a system is doing "X", then set all other aspects to be the same, see if differences are observed. And do it with binary comparisons, don't throw six frames with all kinds of tubing differences to a bunch of riders and expect clarity to be the result.

I agree with the not throwing six frames and expecting clarity etc point atmo.

[Will Neide]

I think the only reality it points to is that of the writer. And, if you don't share his ethos to begin with, it's less believable still. Further to this, if the experiment is let's do this a bunch of times and chart the results, that makes no sense to me. After the second time, and certainly before the fifth or eighth attempt, you're no longer the same rider; fatigue and all that stuff will produce your own personal energy deficit. How valid is a conclusion when you're not the man in the afternoon that you were right after breakfast? Or, are there corrections for this variable too?

I'm assuming he would make this a semi long term test with some form of baseline. 2 data points are nothing. Even 5 are useless. In order to make any kind of scientific paper or analysis out of this, I would expect an extremely thorough vetting of riders, techchnique, and equipment. I imagine all the riders would have all their own personal measurements.....body dimensions, age, etc as well as power numbers being analyzed as well. You could develop a lot of conclusions after generating a massive amount of data.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm assuming he would make this a semi long term test with some form of baseline. 2 data points are nothing. Even 5 are useless. In order to make any kind of scientific paper or analysis out of this, I would expect an extremely thorough vetting of riders, techchnique, and equipment. I imagine all the riders would have all their own personal measurements.....body dimensions, age, etc as well as power numbers being analyzed as well. You could develop a lot of conclusions after generating a massive amount of data.

I'm willing to go there. So, how does one define a massive amount of data?

[Michael Gordon]

I'm willing to go there. So, how does one define a massive amount of data?

I have a massive amount of data around my waist. In this case, I am willing to bet everything that a reduction in the number data points I store here will have the biggest impact on the amount of energy I am able to transfer to the rear wheel.

[Too Tall]

I have a massive amount of data around my waist. In this case, I am willing to bet everything that a reduction in the number data points I store here will have the biggest impact on the amount of energy I am able to transfer to the rear wheel.

Oh YOU are no help. xxoo
Keep it on track. We are beyond that.

[jclay]

I'm willing to go there. So, how does one define a massive amount of data?

Well mon ami, you appear to be looking for irrefutable proof, which doesn't exist. Might never. Well, actually , I think we have proven that there is a flexural mode that affects the drivetrain to a tiny degree (Evigeny's experiment) but let's ignore that. One may interpret the lack of proof in any way wished, but: The lack of proof in this scenario, has about as much bearing on whether or not the phenominoma actually exists or not as the lack of proof of the existence of germs, as agents of disease, had on whether or not germs actually existed a couple of centuries ago. Most people thought it was BS. Turns out they were wrong. It happens a lot.

Personaly, I think something is going on; not certain, not sure what but increasingly think it would be related more to fatigue/muscle stress than a direct energy storage/return mechanism. But that's just me.

Oh, how much data? I'll let a statistician answer that. Powerful stuff, statistics. The data treatment Jan's done seems pretty sound to me.

[jclay]

I have a massive amount of data around my waist. In this case, I am willing to bet everything that a reduction in the number data points I store here will have the biggest impact on the amount of energy I am able to transfer to the rear wheel.

Yeah....but can you prove it in ways that will be accepted here? I doubt it!

[e-RICHIE]

Well mon ami, you appear to be looking for irrefutable proof, which doesn't exist. Might never. Well, actually , I think we have proven that there is a flexural mode that affects the drivetrain to a tiny degree (Evigeny's experiment) but let's ignore that. One may interpret the lack of proof in any way wished, but: The lack of proof in this scenario, has about as much bearing on whether or not the phenominoma actually exists or not as the lack of proof of the existence of germs, as agents of disease, had on whether or not germs actually existed a couple of centuries ago. Most people thought it was BS. Turns out they were wrong. It happens a lot.

Personaly, I think something is going on; not certain, not sure what but increasingly think it would be related more to fatigue/muscle stress than a direct energy storage/return mechanism. But that's just me.

Oh, how much data? I'll let a statistician answer that. Powerful stuff, statistics. The data treatment Jan's done seems pretty sound to me.

Here's the deal, and I'll deliver it with as much tact and grace as I can muster since I don't want to fight, or to leave any residual drama for others to tee off on, and I'd like the conversation to remain civil. You've several time referenced doubters and used examples such as the planet's shape and now phenominoma (I am guessing you mean pneumonia here...). I've made a lot of bicycles. And raced and ridden a lot of different diameters, butt lengths, gauges of steel tubing from all the major suppliers. Different wheels. Pre-built as well as the hand made type. Tires of all width, treads, and pressures. So when I read the tomes about planing and the acolytes who try to use the tomes or other forms of science to describe what I think I already know from experience (my experience, that is), the sense I get - to borrow an analogy - is this: I'm convinced the Earth is round, but a few others (doubters) are now trying to find a way to prove it's flat.

[jclay]

Here's the deal, and I'll deliver it with as much tact and grace as I can muster since I don't want to fight, or to leave any residual drama for others to tee off on, and I'd like the conversation to remain civil. You've several time referenced doubters and used examples such as the planet's shape and now phenominoma (I am guessing you mean pneumonia here...). I've made a lot of bicycles. And raced and ridden a lot of different diameters, butt lengths, gauges of steel tubing from all the major suppliers. Different wheels. Pre-built as well as the hand made type. Tires of all width, treads, and pressures. So when I read the tomes about planing and the acolytes who try to use the tomes or other forms of science to describe what I think I already know from experience (my experience, that is), the sense I get - to borrow an analogy - is this: I'm convinced the Earth is round, but a few others (doubters) are now trying to find a way to prove it's flat.

I appreciate your decorum, Richard.

I mean no disrespect but this analysis, or inquiry, has nothing to do with the act of fabricating bicycles. Further, riding a myriad of bicycles over a lifetime is not the same as constructing a way to see if a bicycle's frame strain energy is, in any way, beneficial to propulsion or rider performance, particularly if as appears to be the case, the amounts of energy are tiny. There are riders/builders of your stature who do not share your view so, while I respect you, your bicycles and your long experience, leveraging that as an argument doesnt really make the case. If wanting to explore the issue then approaches like Jan's, Eveginey's and others are necessary.

You've made your beliefs, and rationale, clear. To me they are not convincing. Jan's tests don't definitively prove the case either but they are a lot more rigorous than anything else I've seen. There appear to be some interesting correlations to performance. I think that's worth honest exploration.

[e-RICHIE]

I appreciate your decorum, Richard.

I mean no disrespect but this analysis, or inquiry, has nothing to do with the act of fabricating bicycles. Further, riding a myriad of bicycles over a lifetime is not the same as constructing a way to see if a bicycle's frame strain energy is, in any way, beneficial to propulsion or rider performance, particularly if as appears to be the case, the amounts of energy are tiny. There are riders/builders of your stature who do not share your view so, while I respect you, your bicycles and your long experience, leveraging that as an argument doesnt really make the case. If wanting to explore the issue then approaches like Jan's, Eveginey's and others are necessary.

You've made your beliefs, and rationale, clear. To me they are not convincing. Jan's tests don't definitively prove the case either but they are a lot more rigorous than anything else I've seen. There appear to be some interesting correlations to performance. I think that's worth honest exploration.

Cool. I misunderstood. I thought all the rides, the blind side-by-side tests, and white papers, and science was being carried out so that better bicycles could be made, or at least makers could more intelligently match material selections so that their wares would be in sync with the paying client.

[Too Tall]

John you can not use the word "rigorous" in the same context as BQ's science. What Jan has done defeats the notion of rigorous science. Solid conjecture based on some data correlation....yup.

We were on the right track, imhfo, when we focused on which set(s) of data needs to be collected and compared. The rest, for me, is speculative and experiential...not that there is anything wrong with that.