Planing

[thollandpe]

Considering these two points, and Jan's assertion that stiffer frames hurt his legs more, maybe the real issue is that the returning force from the bike doesn't go into the back wheel at all, but into the leg, and we get used to the way a bike pushes back on us. So, when we're on bikes that feel like our current bike, we feel (and are) faster because the rate at which this stored power is trying to attack our legs is what we're used to, and our legs mete out power in the right amount to work with our equipment. When on a stiffer bike, the force is returned at a quicker rate, and it is more tiring to fight it. But with time, we'll get used to the spring rate of the stiffer bike, and less stiff bikes will feel "noodly" - and slower.

Does this frame flex, or lack thereof, affect one leg more than the other? Because the power from the left leg has to go through a lot more components, and its return frequency should be significantly different.


Is this noodle al dente?

[progetto]

Does a bike still plane if you only have one leg?

[Marin]

The bike would probably not plane if you have 2 legs and both crank arms pointing in the same direction.

Marin Gazzari

[Too Tall]

I need three people to say shut the mother down.

[jclay]

I need three people to say shut the mother down.

Wow, doesn't take much to upset some apple carts around here. It reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode where the aliens mess with the power grid a little. Too funny.

[lumpy]

I need three people to say shut the mother down.

Not me. I say, turn this mutha out. We want the funk!

Edward Carman

[happycampyer]

Not me. I say, turn this mutha out. We want the funk!

The question is, if you’re up for the downstroke, will you plane?

William Threadgill

[e-RICHIE]

A reminder to all that if you are adding comments to any threads on The Frame Forum they should be accompanied by a first and last name as per the user agreement. If I know you you are, I'll add the names myself if they are missing. If I don't, you'll get a PM from me asking who you are.

No anonymity allowed down here.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I need three people to say shut the mother down.

I vote thumbs down. After a while the discussion has gone around the block too many times. Andy

[jclay]

I vote thumbs down. After a while the discussion has gone around the block too many times. Andy

Then perhaps ignore the thread?

Is it really that frightening and subversive?

[Andrew R Stewart]

Then perhaps ignore the thread?

Is it really that frightening and subversive?

No it's not but I get tired of reading the same, seemingly, miss informed speculations over and over. Yes, this is my problem. I have a hard time turning away from a debate (whether it involves real facts or false ones:)) Andy

[tbonefitz]

I say shut it down. Nothing further to be gained by the debate. There are no more data points to argue, no more experts to weigh in (not that I'm an expert), and until someone comes up with an emipirical study, just ride what you like.

And, as has been said, this sport is arguably cheaper than psychotherapy. Unless you ask my wife.

Keith Fitzgerald

[Matthew Strongin]

I say shut it down. Nothing further to be gained by the debate. There are no more data points to argue, no more experts to weigh in (not that I'm an expert), and until someone comes up with an emipirical study, just ride what you like.

And, as has been said, this sport is arguably cheaper than psychotherapy. Unless you ask my wife.

Keith Fitzgerald

Maybe someone here could design an actual experiment to prove or disprove the theory. It's not like bikes are propelled by the mysteries of the cosmos. Hell, if Elon Musk can send his Tesla Roadster to Mars, someone should be able to demonstrably prove or disprove Planing.

[Marin]

The problem is that the claim at the core of planing is not that is saves you power but that it makes you put out more power. Good luck designing a simple experiment to prove this - you'd need a full-blown study


-----------...-----------
Marin Gazzari
Vienna Austria

[chasea]

At what pressure do you have to run your tires- and what size tires- and how much tension must you build into a wheel- and how stiff of a rim of rim must you use for in the wheel build- and what is the ideal weight of rider? You know, so you can feel the flex of joined steel tubing to determine if it planed?

Chase Anderson

[chasea]

Somebody say 155 lbs.

Chase Anderson

[chasea]

Wouldn't it be funny if it actually just came down to which shoes Jan wore on the day?

Chase Anderson

[jclay]

The problem is that the claim at the core of planing is not that is saves you power but that it makes you put out more power. Good luck designing a simple experiment to prove this - you'd need a full-blown study
Marin Gazzari
Vienna Austria

No, it isn't. It's about power delivery smoothing, at least in my estimation. It's about strain energy reducing peak impulse magnitude (measured at the pedal or chain for example) in exchange for broadening the force v. pedal position curve. That would equal smoother power delivery (which is one reason we're taught to pedal smoothly) and reduced max muscle fiber tension, both being beneficial to performance.

And the notion that what one leg delivers to strain energy the other leg receives, making it a zero sum game, doesn't make sense if you draw a force v pedal position curve and buy the notion that strain energy is being returned to the system as the pedal force diminishes from maximum/near max (which makes sense). Obviously timing v a particular frame's behavior is important.

Clouding the issue by wondering if choice of spoke nipple or other ancillary selections affect this is just that, clouding; a distraction from the subject at issue.

It's actually a pretty interesting technical puzzle and since one can find experienced framebuilding and racing partisans on both sides of the issue, the truth won't be found by one side pounding the table harder.

[JohnnyChromatic]

How about this experiment. Use a pedal based power meter and a hub based power meter and collect raw force data from both. In a perfectly rigid system, they should output identical strain data at any time. Even with all the imperfections of comparing 2 different data collecting mechanisms, a stiffer bike should show a stronger correlation over time than a less stiff bike. I would certainly expect to see power at the hub have a lower maximum than at the pedals. If there is some point in the pedal stroke where power higher at the hub, that would point to some mechanism within the bike absorbing and re-releasing forward impulse.

Or so I would think.

PS Don't kill this thread yet, unless I am being a complete buffoon.

[Too Tall]

Wow, doesn't take much to upset some apple carts around here. It reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode where the aliens mess with the power grid a little. Too funny.

I'm far from upset my brother. To quote Elvis Costello > I used to be disgusted
and now I try to be amused.
But since their wings have got rusted,
you know, the angels wanna wear my red shoes

Seriously, this is about giggles and riding bikes. Jan's theories are solved by group debate, apparently 'cause it sure as hell is not science. The whole big tires thing, he was right. This is more complicated, alot more complicated and we are trying to position where frame design fits with riders abilities. Toss one human element in there and you got yourself a roaring debat. Cool?

The thread will live.